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frusciantefango Yesterday

Prior to mandatory masks on flights...I wonder how many of the 15 would have not contracted it had we been smart enough to implement that simple rule faster.

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duckduckohno Yesterday

Even with rules like mandatory masks, it doesn't eliminate the chance of being infected. https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/11/20-3353_article > we enrolled in our study 310 passengers who boarded an evacuation flight from Milan, Italy, to South Korea... > After an 11-hour flight, 299 asymptomatic passengers arrived in South Korea and were immediately quarantined for 2 weeks at a government quarantine facility... > On quarantine day 14, a 28-year-old woman who had no underlying disease had a confirmed positive test result for COVID-19. On the flight from Milan, Italy, to South Korea, she wore an N95 mask, except when she used a toilet. The toilet was shared by passengers sitting nearby, including an asymptomatic patient. She was seated 3 rows away from the asymptomatic patient. Given that she did not go outside and had self-quarantined for 3 weeks alone at her home in Italy before the flight and did not use public transportation to get to the airport, it is highly likely that her infection was transmitted in the flight via indirect contact with an asymptomatic patient.

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PSRJ01081431 Yesterday

Surgical masks should not be allowed though. Only N95+ or equivalent. There should be a NIOSH tested mask list that the airlines can check against.

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Skemes Yesterday

This study was conducted on a flight in March. No one on the flight was wearing a mask.

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PSRJ01081431 Yesterday

From the article: >Fourth, we had no data available on individual passenger use of face masks while on board, March was already months into the pandemic. Just because masks were not required does not mean no one was wearing masks. Even before the pandemic it was not uncommon for some passengers on flights to Asia to wear masks. What percentage of passengers were wearing masks on that flight is unknown but I would be very surprised if none of them were.

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Flyntstoned Yesterday

If we were to start requiring those types then they would have to be freely available, they're too fuckin expensive to keep buying.

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YourUncleEddie Yesterday

So no one can fly because these n95s aren’t easily available for the average mister joe airflyer. But yes I agree, n95s should be used by everyone.

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PSRJ01081431 Yesterday

Agree it's a problem and not a small one, but maybe the airlines could make a deal. A good argument can be made for the necessity of it. An aircraft is a very high risk environment even if not quite as high risk as actually dealing with covid patients in a hospital. Only one per passenger would be needed though. I think the fact that every single N95 mask is diverted to hospitals is a big strategic error which in the end results in a lot more patients for the health care workers to deal with putting them in more danger. Korea has been exporting their excellent KF94 masks for a while now and China makes some KN95 masks that work very well, but they are indistinguishable from the ones that don't work. So they would need to be tested by NIOSH or another government agency with the right equipment.

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LadyStoneware Yesterday

Yeah... looks like I’m not flying for a long, long while. For someone who hates long car rides a road trips never looked as appealing as it does right now.

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mhornberger Yesterday

I wonder how that'll balance out with the higher mortality rate per mile for auto travel.

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Sly1969 Yesterday

Just make sure you don't t car share...

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LadyStoneware Yesterday

Family and/ or SO only. We stay tested and follow all measures suggested by CDC and then some. Too many vulnerable people in my life to play around carelessly and catch covid.

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mangotrees777 Yesterday

>Too many vulnerable people in my life to play around carelessly and catch covid. This is the correct attitude. Wish more people thought as you do.

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weallhavetheinternet Yesterday

As in one person physically transmitted single handedly it to fifteen different people? Or spread it to one person and they spread it to another?

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wuflu4u Yesterday

Taking the 30 seconds to read the first half of the abstract would answer that question.

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Jasnaahhh 2 days ago

relevant findings:

Our findings have several implications for international air travel, especially because several countries have resumed air travel despite ongoing SARS-CoV-2 transmission. First, thermal imaging and self-declaration of symptoms have clear limitations, as demonstrated by case 1, who boarded the flight with symptoms and did not declare them before or after the flight. Second, long flights not only can lead to importation of COVID-19 cases but also can provide conditions for superspreader events. It has been hypothesized that a combination of environmental factors on airplanes (humidity, temperature, air flow) can prolong the presence of SARS-CoV-2 in flight cabins (27).

No evidence indicated that the regular air conditioning and exchange system on flight VN54 were malfunctioning. [a bunch of deleted by me for brevity] studies limited contact tracing to passengers within 2 rows of the index cases, which could explain why secondary flight-related transmission was not detected.

The latest guidance from the international air travel industry classifies the in-flight transmission risk as very low (34) and recommends only the use of face masks without additional measures to increase physical distance on board, such as blocking the middle seats (7,35).

Our findings challenge these recommendations.

Transmission on flight VN54 was clustered in business class, where seats are already more widely spaced than in economy class, and infection spread much further than the existing 2-row (36) or 2 meters (37) rule recommended for COVID-19 prevention on airplanes and other public transport would have captured. Similar conclusions were reached for SARS-CoV superspreader events on a flight in 2003, in which a high risk for infection was observed for passengers seated farther than 3 rows from the index case (4). This finding also concurs with transmission patterns observed for influenza virus (38) and is generally in line with the mounting evidence that airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2 is a major yet underrecognized transmission route (39,40).

Our findings call for tightened screening and infection prevention measures by public health authorities, regulators, and the airline industry, especially in countries where substantial transmission is ongoing (37). Making mask wearing obligatory and making hand hygiene and cough etiquette standard practice while on board and at airports seems an obvious and relatively simple measure (27). Blocking middle seats, currently recommended by the airline industry (7,35), may in theory prevent some in-flight transmission events but seems to be insufficient to prevent superspreading events. Also, systematic testing, quarantine policies, or both, for inbound passengers at arrival might be justified for countries with low levels of community transmission, high risk for case importation, and limited contact tracing capacity (5). In Vietnam, for example, as a result of this investigation, national policy was changed toward mandatory testing at arrival irrespective of departure location and 14-day quarantine irrespective of test result or clinical signs/symptoms (41). This policy change eliminated the need for resource-intensive contact tracing of flight passengers altogether and enabled detection of another 106 cases among »5,000 passengers on 44 flights until all international flights were halted on March 28. However, given the logistic and economic implications of such policies, the development of a quick and reliable point-of-care test that covers the entire infectious period remains paramount.

We conclude that the risk for on-board transmission of SARS-CoV-2 during long flights is real and has the potential to cause COVID-19 clusters of substantial size, even in business class–like settings with spacious seating arrangements well beyond the established distance used to define close contact on airplanes. As long as COVID-19 presents a global pandemic threat in the absence of a good point-of-care test, better on-board infection prevention measures and arrival screening procedures are needed to make flying safe.

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converter-bot 2 days ago

2 meters is 2.19 yards

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postmortemmicrobes 2 days ago

Bad bot

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B0tRank 2 days ago

Thank you, postmortemmicrobes, for voting on converter-bot. This bot wants to find the best and worst bots on Reddit. [You can view results here](https://botrank.pastimes.eu/). *** ^(Even if I don't reply to your comment, I'm still listening for votes. Check the webpage to see if your vote registered!)

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flukus 2 days ago

No need for spastic units here converter-bot!

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henrycatalina 3 days ago

The air circulation system and operational status during the flight should be considered. Often first class is first on, and the air systems are not always running.

Next, all the couples traveling in middle seats could have transmitted the virus between them.

And it appears if one takes a radial projection from the case seat, it shows a limit to projection.

And, now as of September, no one with a hacking cough will be allowed on a plane. The research and contact tracing is excellent, but jumping to all kinds of recommendations does not consider awareness now prevalent worldwide.

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sm__reddit 4 days ago

But I thought airplanes were supposed to have super clean air, with filtration and lots of fresh air exchange. The paper says there was no evidence of the HVAC malfunctioning. How did it happen, and why doesn't it happen more often?

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Spetz 5 days ago

This paper demonstrates what we all knew to be true that business had tried to convince us otherwise of.

The only way flights stay in business is if everyone wears a n95 without an exhaust valve the whole time.

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wip30ut 5 days ago

that's a wakeup call for those like me who thought that cabin filtration would avert super-spreader events. This case study really demonstrates how contagious covid can be when you're cooped up in one seat for hours & hours near someone who's infected. I just wonder how effective a N95/KN95/KF94 would be when you're dealing with multi-hour flights without layovers?

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NotAnotherEmpire 5 days ago

It's up against the max in pandemic stress circumstances for how long one is to be used / lasts. Far exceeds normal approved use. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/respirators-strategy/index.html

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D-R-AZ 5 days ago

Abstract

To assess the role of in-flight transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), we investigated a cluster of cases among passengers on a 10-hour commercial flight. Affected persons were passengers, crew, and their close contacts. We traced 217 passengers and crew to their final destinations and interviewed, tested, and quarantined them. Among the 16 persons in whom SARS-CoV-2 infection was detected, 12 (75%) were passengers seated in business class along with the only symptomatic person (attack rate 62%). Seating proximity was strongly associated with increased infection risk (risk ratio 7.3, 95% CI 1.2–46.2). We found no strong evidence supporting alternative transmission scenarios. In-flight transmission that probably originated from 1 symptomatic passenger caused a large cluster of cases during a long flight. Guidelines for preventing SARS-CoV-2 infection among air passengers should consider individual passengers’ risk for infection, the number of passengers traveling, and flight duration.

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D-R-AZ 5 days ago

Abstract

To assess the role of in-flight transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), we investigated a cluster of cases among passengers on a 10-hour commercial flight. Affected persons were passengers, crew, and their close contacts. We traced 217 passengers and crew to their final destinations and interviewed, tested, and quarantined them. Among the 16 persons in whom SARS-CoV-2 infection was detected, 12 (75%) were passengers seated in business class along with the only symptomatic person (attack rate 62%). Seating proximity was strongly associated with increased infection risk (risk ratio 7.3, 95% CI 1.2–46.2). We found no strong evidence supporting alternative transmission scenarios. In-flight transmission that probably originated from 1 symptomatic passenger caused a large cluster of cases during a long flight. Guidelines for preventing SARS-CoV-2 infection among air passengers should consider individual passengers’ risk for infection, the number of passengers traveling, and flight duration.

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edmar10 5 days ago

Worth noting that they don't have data on mask use but the authors wrote

Face masks were neither recommended nor widely used on airplanes in early March, in particular not among travelers from Europe, who constituted the majority of passengers on flight VN54.

There's now quite a few studies about transmission on flights and I think it'd be a good research topic for somebody to write a systematic review and/or meta-analysis on this topic

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punarob Epidemiologist 5 days ago

One of the problems is that on any flight which serves food or drinks, people are going to have their masks off at the same time. Where I live they serve drinks on 20 minute flights, so half the passengers have their masks off at about the same time. I wouldn't consider flying unless I could be 100% certain I would not ever need to even slightly adjust my mask in a way which could let more air in. That certainly rules out any flight over an hour.

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edmar10 5 days ago

Abstract

To assess the role of in-flight transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), we investigated a cluster of cases among passengers on a 10-hour commercial flight. Affected persons were passengers, crew, and their close contacts. We traced 217 passengers and crew to their final destinations and interviewed, tested, and quarantined them. Among the 16 persons in whom SARS-CoV-2 infection was detected, 12 (75%) were passengers seated in business class along with the only symptomatic person (attack rate 62%). Seating proximity was strongly associated with increased infection risk (risk ratio 7.3, 95% CI 1.2–46.2). We found no strong evidence supporting alternative transmission scenarios. In-flight transmission that probably originated from 1 symptomatic passenger caused a large cluster of cases during a long flight. Guidelines for preventing SARS-CoV-2 infection among air passengers should consider individual passengers’ risk for infection, the number of passengers traveling, and flight duration.

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GreystarTheWizard 13 hs ago

What would this mean for cardano and others? Is there a need for them if eth2 is a success?

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pas32 Yesterday

Everyone can't wait for this update to happen.

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Ashtehstampede Yesterday

Last chance to buy Eth below 1k

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Snckbrt_ Yesterday

Atleast not until eip 1559

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RommelTJ Yesterday

Why? The amount of locked ETH is going to barely increase and I feel like this might already be priced in. Coupled with US elections pessimism, I want to understand why you think ETH will skyrocket to $1k.

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maxstandard Yesterday

Please help me understand when you say "the amount locked ETH will barely increase." What are you comparing this to currently? To the best of my knowledge there is not any real ETH locked for staking purposes. The only ETH that locked is testnet ETH which is why the price of real ETH hasn't moved. Once the deposit contract of Phase 0 goes live real ETH will be locked up and will impact the price by being removed from circulation. Additionally, ETH is still being locked in defi contracts. Both of these make a pretty good argument for a greatly increased ETH price in my opinion.

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plaenar ETH maximalist Yesterday

One scenario is that mostly people who are already holding ETH long term will stake anyways, so those are not really being removed from circulation. Although there is the possibility of some people deciding to acquire ETH to fund validators.

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pegcity Yesterday

I think it will reduce miner dumping, they will switch to mass staking, this could be a pipe dream though

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iPeculiarly Yesterday

Slashing will reduce supply, eip 1559 will reduce supply and provide more fair transactions, staking will lock up ether, defi will lock up more. It's got a lot going for it.

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Louisoneth Yesterday

Slashing won’t have that big an effect, eip 1559 is still a year off, staking might help but defi doesn’t ‘lock up’. The effect may be underwhelming

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raddlepad Yesterday

So is eth 2.0 might launch this year?

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foyamoon Yesterday

Sure looks like it

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logiotek Yesterday

Who cares Q4'20 or Q1'21? Not many. As long as other developments for Phases 1, 1.5, 2.0 keeps moving regardless.

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Antana18 17 hs ago

I was about to disagree until reading the second half of your comment. Indeed phase 0 is relatively unimportant compared to the other two phases and the latter ones need to be introduced ASAP. So, I really hope they are already under full steam in getting phase I out quickly after phase 0.

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logiotek 15 hs ago

Phase 0 is perceived as unimportant but it's the foundation. It has to be done right and correct.

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Antana18 14 hs ago

Agreed!

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TibbersCrypto Yesterday

So what will happen to the folks with mining rigs?

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spe59436-bcaoo Yesterday

Either ETC will get more hash or there'll be a new fork. It will cost less for miners than liquidating all mining assets and closing mining businesses. Some miners will refocus to other PoW chains during ETH2 roll out, but probably not much. Difficulty retargets make mining always a theater packed to the edge Even just with DEXes there'll be a lot of volume trading tokens between PoW/PoS versions of Ethereum, a lot of fees for miners, I'd imagine

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DukeVerde Yesterday

Why fork what was already forked?

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logiotek Yesterday

Keep on mining until at least Phase 2. And even after that there will be a need for some compute. Bottom line is in blockchain you can stake, provide liquidity to DeFi liquidity pools, sell compute resources, sell bandwidth and storage space, and probably some other stuff nobody thought of yet. Lots of stuff to do to earn.

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ItsAConspiracy 12 hs ago

There's no mining after 1.5. Plenty of opportunity to do all the other stuff, just no use for racks of GPUs.

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logiotek 12 hs ago

Phase 1.5 just brings current ETH 1.x mainnet onto its own shard chain. All execution is still done on old ETH 1.x EVM. Phase 1.5 will also allow transfers between ETH1 and ETH2 tokens via smart contract on ETH 1.x shard chain. Need Phase 2 (EVM upgrade) to fully transition and move away from mining. And even then there will be transition period of dApp/user migration where you can keep mining.

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ItsAConspiracy 12 hs ago

Yes, it's on the EVM, but the consensus algorithm will be Gasper at that point, not proof of work. There's no plan to somehow graft PoW into ETH2.

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logiotek 12 hs ago

Like I wrote above, both ETH1 and ETH2 will coexist *at least* until everyone migrates over to ETH2.

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ItsAConspiracy 12 hs ago

Only if the miners decide to keep their own PoW fork running. There's currently a demo of ETH1 running inside a Phase 1 shard, with no PoW in sight. That is the plan, and it happens before Phase 2.

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MemeyCurmudgeon Flippant Flippener Yesterday

Phase 0 mainnet is coming soon (no “™️” necessary)

They're really sure about this one... dare I believe?

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Ayrianne Yesterday

Well.. what else are you gonna do?

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eth-addict Yesterday

Short and oh so very sweet. I love it.

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laylaandlunabear Yesterday

Seems like we are very, very close. Congrats to the devs and community.

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NSErrorWtf Yesterday

The suggestion that Eth2.0 phase 0 could cause ETH to fail the SEC's Howey test is a new, and somewhat concerning, one to me.

I would love to hear another opinion on this.

https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/pull/2982

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laylaandlunabear Yesterday

Under the Howey Test, the investor must expect profits solely from the efforts of the promoter or a third party. Here, investors are doing the "efforts"/work themselves by running the validator nodes on their own computers or hardware.

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ItsAConspiracy Yesterday

I'm no lawyer but neither is Greg Colvin. Imho staking clearly does not make ETH fail the Howey test. > Any profit comes from the efforts of a promoter or third party. The profit does not come from the efforts of a third party. It comes from your own efforts, running a staking node. You're the one validating transactions and building a sequence of blocks, and you get paid for that. > It is an investment of money. It's not even an investment of money. You get paid for doing work. The money is there so the protocol can slash you if you misbehave. If I were to do some kind of contract work for you, and deposited money somewhere that I would lose if I didn't hold up my end of the deal, that money would not be an investment for me. The IRS treats mining as work, too. You don't pay capital gains on your mining income. You get paid for your work and owe regular income tax. When people start doing taxes on staking gains, I bet their excess ETH will also count as regular income. If anyone has made an investment it's ETH holders who aren't staking, but just hoping for ETH to go up. But the government has already decided that if ETH ever was a security, it's not anymore, because now it's so decentralized it's really a commodity.

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PurpleHamster Yesterday

There’s already several PoS networks running so I’m not totally sure why the concern is there.

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NSErrorWtf Yesterday

Are there any PoS networks running that allow staking without withdraw/exchange?

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Henrywotton19 Yesterday

Good job ppl, lookin forward to staking for years now

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alexiskef Yesterday

Thank you Danny!!

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adrewishprince Yesterday

I already have one. I still can't get it on the helium network. I can't convert data credits to pay the network connection fee.

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TheWakened Yesterday

You can activate it with an alpha code. Come to discord and ask for an activation code

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adrewishprince Yesterday

I’m on discord. My username is SDPilot, what room do I ask?

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Wheaties466 Yesterday

Sounds like you’re using the blackspot image. If you use a regular DIY and join the alpha program it works great.

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jordanw426 Yesterday

Bought 2. Shipping in December.

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rorwhs04 Yesterday

I understand this is sold out but I tried to buy anyways, and it processed my order. Anyone try to buy it "after" it said sold out?

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jonnyt03 Yesterday

Sold out already! 😞

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MKBtravel Yesterday

So.... anyone bought it yet?

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PASll Yesterday

Order is in for 5 with extended antennas.

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Permit-Actual Yesterday

Bought 6

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MKBtravel Yesterday

nice and do they say when it might arrive? and how come its got two port of antenna connector? is that both for antenna?

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pharkmillups Admin Yesterday

They ship in October. And if when this batch sells out (which they will), the there will be another batch shipping likely in December.

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PM_me_storm_drains Yesterday

How many units were in the October batch? It's already sold out :/

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MKBtravel Yesterday

this will work exactlly just like the regular helium hotspot correct? through the native helium app and everything same setup?

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thenopeburger Yesterday

Yes

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MKBtravel Yesterday

thank you

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etceterasaurus Yesterday

One is for an optional GPS unit

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MKBtravel Yesterday

is there some where i could read on how to use that port with GPS unit? Other than that it works or normally through the Helium app correct?

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thenopeburger Yesterday

GPS isn’t currently being used. Some of us recently built fully functional DIY hotspots and they told us we could leave out the GPS

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FUSCN8A 2 days ago

Until yield farming destroys itself (and possibly Ethereum in the processes), this kind of news won't stop.

Even if we solve yield farming GAS issues, something else will replace the demand (remember Crypto Kitties?).

All hands on deck to fix the GAS problem now!

Let's finally get off ETH 1.0 and start staking or figure out a way to force the proceeds earned by these high-volume, high earning smart contracts to start subsidizing GAS.

Ethereum like Bitcoin, has unfortunately failed as a technology for its intended purpose simply due to popularity.

This is the limits of Proof of Work for Ethereum and to be honest, I'm surprised its lasted as long as it did.

I think one of the worst things we allowed as a community was removing the time-bomb functionality which forced hard forks. This created forced discourse and change which is now lacking.

It's not too late to change. We just need to remove some of these 1 MB Greg types out of the decision making process and learn to take risks and be OK with failure.

Acknowledging the elephant in the room - failure is first needed (like this Blog has done!) which is a great sign. Next is strong leadership and swift action instead of words.

I still have hope we can pull this off.

Having participated in and surviving the DAOsaster - that was a time of rapid change and risk taking along with strong leadership. We need to be OK with failure even when there's money on the line.

Let's go!

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HodlDwon 3 days ago

That sucks. Was really excited for something like this to work.

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alicenekocat 3 days ago

It's sad to see more projects shut down due to Ethereum's problems. Hopefully more diverse applications are once again possible in Ethereum. In my view, I wouldn't want it to become a DeFi only blockchain.

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InquisitiveBoba 3 days ago

if its possible to be shut down then it wasn't decentralized to begin with

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alicenekocat 3 days ago

FYI most current DeFi "dapps" are not that decentralized either. Many have admin / root keys and trusted third parties. Uniswap is a notable exception.

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InquisitiveBoba 2 days ago

So is no better then finance 1.0 In fact its worse because you can be anon and do rug pulls on lots of people because you don't have to deal with regulation. Uniswap isnt the exception anymore with the governance token. The FED could just print some USD and then buy 51% of the UNI supply and then vote in anything they want.

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foyamoon 3 days ago

Ugh..

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capitalol 3 days ago

I wonder if this is a canary in the coalmine. Which other projects are now quietly closing shop... or moving elsewhere?

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alicenekocat 3 days ago

NFTs and gaming have been moving away from Ethereum for some time now. Remember MLB and cryptokitties? check where they are developing now.

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capitalol 3 days ago

I just looked up CK and it looks like they are still on ethereum, no?

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alicenekocat 2 days ago

They are building Flow another blockchain where they can migrate to.

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redditsucks_goruqqus 3 days ago

Anything that is not DeFi will struggle according to the [guy that runs the top crypto VC, Olaf Carlsen](https://old.reddit.com/r/polkadot_market/comments/iw5ium/not_sure_why_this_wasnt_posted_before_olaf/). I'm legitimately sad that one of my favorite projects - Etheroll - is down to [7 players and 12 rolls this week](https://old.reddit.com/r/etheroll/comments/irzq9a/myetherolls_weekly_game_summary_week_37_2020/). I used to explain the potential of smart contracts to people back in 2017 using Etheroll as an example. It was such a simple dapp that most people instantly got the value of smart contracts: there's no permissions needed, no trust needed... just read the code and press roll.

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reuptaken 3 days ago

Social Sets (part of Token Sets) are struggling, most suspended trading, mine included. It can cost several hundreds USD to start a Set rebalancing process (change of asset allocation)

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edmundedgar reality.eth 3 days ago

Really sad to see, it was such a great project. But you have to respect teams that give the money back to investors once they realize their initial plan isn't going to pan out rather than doing endless pivots until they've spent it all.

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OnetimeAugurUser 3 days ago

100% this. If you know the project isn't going to work, shut it down, and give back whatever you can.

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Crypto_Economist42 4 days ago

Wrong assumption #1 always seemed like a problem to me from day 1. Suprised you guys even tried to make it work.

All 'freemium' models where multisig wallets are created for free by the service provider on behalf of the user just won't scale in the long run. How can an SP afford even $1 per signup if its trivial to sybil attack that?

Argent will run into this problem also. It's only a matter of time.

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vvpan 4 days ago

Not sure about Unilogin but at the moment Argent requires you to provide your phone number and the account is tied to it. I am no security expert to claim that it prevents Sybil attacks, but so-far it's been working. But yes - being a business subsidizing transactions ain't easy at the moment. Argent better monetize, cause I really like them (they are also #22 on the Eth Gas Station ETH25 Leaderboard, yay).

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trogdortb001 MyCrypto - Jordan 4 days ago

This is a bummer. This is also a FANTASTIC post and outlines many problems, assumptions, and results, and I recommend everyone read this from top to bottom.

Best of luck to Alex and the rest of the UniLogin team in their future endeavors.

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redditsucks_goruqqus 3 days ago

>This is a bummer. Double bummer when you consider that UniLogin is entirely aware of existing and upcoming L2 solutions but found them lacking.

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alicenekocat 3 days ago

Despite on what many think, L2s lack on many fronts. Complexity increases almost exponentially and lack of composability is a real issue that no L2 deals with. That's why the recommendation is always: "Use it if you just wanna move tokens around". Else, build at your own risk. Developer time is precious and finite, you can't just go and explore a production ready app on L2 just because. The switch to ETH 2 also adds an additional dose of uncertainty to the mix.

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epic_trader 3 days ago

Triple bummer when you consider that avsa loudly encouraged everyone else to stop working on login solutions because his team was working on it and made it sound like everyone else would be wasting their time

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redditsucks_goruqqus 3 days ago

I mean maybe he did them a favor though, so minus one bummer?

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duong1989 6 days ago

Good perspectives to keep thinking about.

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LucSr 6 days ago

> You can’t escape the fingerprints of thermodynamics

Assume the real term time preference rate 0.5% and the worldwide average price of one kwh at 0.1 USD and the worldwide narrow money plus gold at 4.61E+13 USD, the annual energy budget to establish trust is 8.29E+18 Joules which is 1.42% of the annual worldwide total energy consumption 5.84E+20 Joules. Assume people don't change ratios of energy consumption of each economy sector as economy expands, the 1.42% of trust token maintenance/production sector remains. It means the energy fingerprints is always not an issue if the mining task can be decentralized.

> Lightning ..

People who buy in the Lightning scale solution may prefer staying off chain forever so OP's argument is not justified.

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Bitcoin_puzzler 6 days ago

Oh no the scalability "problem" is back

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ride_the_LN 6 days ago

Mining is likely to become more distributed we near hard physical limits on efficiency and mining chips are fully commoditized. Remember that electric space heater that mines?

Nobody's making money on lightning fees either, channels are one-time setup and rarely need to be closed. Seems like it's doing fine... anyone having issues?

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LightningHosted 6 days ago

Meme

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Bitcoin_Acolyte 6 days ago

Are we hurtling towards another situation where bitcoiners were promised cheap and free payments only to find out that's not technically feasible but this time with lighting? I think lighting is amazing but the last time this conception and reality diverged it caused the bitcoin community some major growing pains.

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TheGreatMuffin 6 days ago

Despite the controversial title, I encourage anyone to give it a read, there are some good thoughts in it.

The TL;DR of the biggest point is: [large scale] mining is impossible to pull off without a thermodynamic fingerprint. This could create a systemic risk because miners are subject to their jurisdiction's laws/KYC obligations.

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bitusher 6 days ago

This also means there are some benefits to small scale mining over large industrial mining. If large industrial miners are targeted by regulators , thieves , or terrorists this simply is an added inefficiency they take on to counter the efficiency of scale encouraging more decentralized mining that cannot easily be tracked and regulated. There are also some overlooked things in this article as far as other ways lightning is scaling leading to more efficient use of onchain capacity like splicing or the fact that larger onchain fees can amortize across millions of lightning txs.

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Gaspa79 6 days ago

Yeah, that's a good TL;DR. Some points are just... moot? Like the crushed expectations part. The author is plain wrong about something: it talks about the flood and loot attack on LN, and how things like that motivated the bcash split for bigger blocks due to unreasonable expectations. That's simply not true: having an 8mb block will not solve any of those "crushed expectations". Those things had nothing to do with the split. Also, if you think the attack the author linked is possible with a 2-4mb (segwitted) blocksize but it's not with an 8mb blocksize you're dreaming. Furthermore, the core idea of comparing the lightning network attack to the blocksize is wrong: For the attack to happen there should be a lightning 'backlog' of transactions that are much, **MUCH** bigger than what an 8 megabyte block would be able to handle. So what's the point here? "Lightning doesn't scale that much, and look at this attack. Oh, things like these motivated the split... but not even a 10mb block would solve this volume, so the split was useless to address this." What's wrong with this part of the article is that the author seems to know what he's talking about, but he is just combining his/her scattered knowledge of btc stuff into a bunch of nonsense.

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TheGreatMuffin 6 days ago

> The author is plain wrong about something: it talks about the flood and loot attack on LN, and how things like that motivated the bcash split for bigger blocks due to unreasonable expectations. That's simply not true: having an 8mb block will not solve any of those "crushed expectations". Those things had nothing to do with the split. Hm, I don't think he is talking about block size. I also don't think he means that a split will have anything to do with a block size itself, he is just giving an example of the previous split off caused by the block size controversy (some people's expectations of cheap tx's/large blocks got "crushed"). And makes an analogy that in Lightning people expect cheap and micropayments to work out infinitely, which might not be the case in the future and lead to disappointment of those people. It doesn't seem to me he is talking about specific Lightning attacks, but about the consequences on the "social layer" (disappointment by overpromises/hype/misunderstanding) and lots of infrastructure being broken because it relied heavily on micropayments being viable. Anyway, what is your opinion on the mining part?

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bittenbycoin 6 days ago

Does bitcoin need 150 ExaHash to survive?

1

TheGreatMuffin 6 days ago

This isn't a "yes or no" question. The answer depends on how much energy and hardware investments those 150 exahash represent and how easy it is to acquire those. The number is relative and doesn't give much absolute information about the security level of the network. The more important question is: how easy is it for a malicious party to reach the majority (or a significant portion) of the hashrate? Also, hardware efficiency improves over time, so even if 150 exahash sounds massive today, it probably won't sound so massive anymore in a few years time.

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soontobesilenced redditor for 3 months 6 days ago

When you're powerless to help, all you can do is complain.

1

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Hooftly 5 days ago

Thanks for sharing here.

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exoticparticle observant 1 week ago

I'd like to be a fly on Brian Armstrong's wall as he reads this.

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Epidemic_Fancy 1 week ago

Ditto; was thinking along similar lines after reading this.

3

Paouky 1 week ago

Thanks for sharing, interesting read.

They left out an important privacy attribute of grin (pre-broadcast aggregation) but they would have reached the same conclusion nonetheless.

2

jesuispero 1 week ago

Don't lose the forest for the trees. Did anyone even read the paper?
Most of their suggestions, regarding Monero, if implemented by exchanges and payment service providers would mean a nightmare for everyone in this community except for those select few that are already well connected, have fancy lawyers and "optimal" legal structures.

We as a community shouldn't condone or incentivize this type of discourse, even if it means financial "gains" in the short term. Most of their suggestions if put in practice would be a direct attack on Monero users, and yet here we are, celebrating. As /u/geonic_correctly pointed out this paper feels like a missed opportunity more than anything else.

We as a community need to remain vigilant and not fall for the same traps that have plagued some other projects in this space, code can change, communities consensus can change, be mindful of playing the state apparatus game and hoping that somehow you'll "win" by playing by their rules. You'll lose, badly.

Even if some people would be financially better off in the short term. That was never Monero's goal, keep that in mind.

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ErCiccione Monero Ecosystem 1 week ago

> playing the state apparatus game and hoping that somehow you'll "win" by playing by their rules. You'll lose, badly. Get a moral gold medal. I'm happy to see there are still people in this community who refuse this kind of regulatory bullshit. I hate to see many acting like Monero will survive only if it will fit state regulations. Too many seem to see Monero as simply a product that needs to fit as many regulations as possible to become mainstream. I don't care of Monero becoming mainstream and worth 1 bajillion a coin. People who actually need Monero will never go through KYC or other regulatory bullshit. They will use an half-broken smartphone found in the streets of a city in Rwanda to send money to the rebels who are trying to overthrow the dictatorship.

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Alex058 1 week ago

How did this whitepaper change the community from cypherpunk to regulatory bootlickers? The tech hasnt changed, the people neither: chill man! EDIT: ErCiccione pointed out to me he didnt write anything like this, I must have read it elsewhere. Anyhow, my apologies to him EDIT2: I see I mixed up two replies, but that doesnt change the fact I was wrong 😅

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ErCiccione Monero Ecosystem 1 week ago

> How did this whitepaper change the community from cypherpunk to regulatory bootlickers? I never said any of that. You should probably reread my comments.

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Alex058 1 week ago

Hi, I would have sworn I had read that exact words in one of your replies. But cant find it now, so I must have been mistaking, hence my well meant apalogies! I will edit my reply immediately

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jesuispero 1 week ago

Also it's worth keeping in mind that loose community agreements shift, new people join the community, etc BTC community was mostly cypherpunk at some point, it's far from it these days, sometimes those things change fast.

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Alex058 1 week ago

Agreed. Good thing is, if this community would change for the bad, a new one would arise

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tempMonero123 1 week ago

Monero can still be used outside of regulatory requirements, just like physical cash can. If Monero was made only to fit in such requirements (become neutered to the point it's basically Bitcoin), then I would have a problem with it.

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jesuispero 1 week ago

> I'm happy to see there are still people in this community who refuse this kind of regulatory bullshit. I hate to see many acting like Monero will survive only if it will fit state regulations. Too many seem to see Monero as simply a product that needs to fit as many regulations as possible to become mainstream. I don't care of Monero becoming mainstream and worth 1 bajillion a coin. I think we can close this thread now :)

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rbrunner7 XMR Contributor 1 week ago

> They will use an half-broken smartphone found in the streets of a city in Rwanda to send money to the rebels who are trying to overthrow the dictatorship. Woah, you lean pretty far out of the window here :) But yeah, has something.

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ErCiccione Monero Ecosystem 1 week ago

I could have made a softer example about rural asian communities receiving fundings for their farm in XMR directly to their phone from a random guy in australia, but the rwanda rebels thing was a more powerful example :P

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MoneroArbo 1 week ago

Do you have any specific concerns?

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jesuispero 1 week ago

On another note, another high-level concern I have is that we as a community will change our culture and start focusing on these "compliance questions" too much, foregoing possible protocol improvements/research because that would potentially mean "delisting". Being not compliant with policies as draconian as the FAFT or AMLD5, would in other periods in this community, not that long ago, been seen as a badge of honor. Or that we'll become gradually more like the Bitcoin community, more and more focused on "number go up", "institutional investors" and similar crap like that.

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ErCiccione Monero Ecosystem 1 week ago

This is probably my biggest fear. Luckily that's not the case yet, but i cannot hide that seeing so many in the community being so focused about compliance (not talking about the average guy who only wants to see numbers going up, talking about actual contributors) worries me. Luckily i don't see key developers like moneromooo becoming regulatory bootlickers, so as long as things stay as they are, we are good. On a personal note, i wouldn't really want to be part of a project focused on pleasing institutions and regulations. That's not the reason i'm here.

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jesuispero 1 week ago

"To target and lessen the anonymity-related risks of privacy coins, appropriate enhanced due diligence would likely include measures to prove a customer’s source of funds, place of residence, and profession. Other measures may include a requirement that customers describe in detail their purpose for transacting privacy coins (e.g., the holder is a cryptocurrency trader or operates a business in which cryptocurrency is accepted as payment), along with anticipated privacy coin transaction volumes and anticipated privacy coin transaction counterparties." "Although it would be a blunter instrument for risk mitigation than per-customer analysis, a VASP could reasonably and effectively lessen the overall AML risk of a privacy coin offering by categorically prohibiting customers who are in higher risk categories or geographies from accessing the privacy coin offering" " a VASP could require supplemental information from a customer before processing a privacy coin transaction (e.g., details regarding the purpose of a transaction, the name and address of the recipient, and contact information for the recipient)." "Users can reveal an XMR transaction’s details that are specific to their account via key-based functionality that is built into the Monero protocol. Specific view keys can be shared with any third party to grant insight into the account associated with the view keys. This enables users and VASPs to disclose certain transaction details associated with a given account to a third party without publicly disclosing that user’s transactional information. In addition, VASPs can require up-front disclosures as part of their registration process and on an ongoing basis to meet their obligations." Imagine if all (or a combination of the above) becomes the standard of the industry, is this (as a community) what we are really rooting/lobbying for?

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tempMonero123 1 week ago

Yes, those are concerns, and I'd rather not have those requirements. However it doesn't stop Monero from being a useful tool. This would prevent people from *not* 'being their own bank'. People can still use Monero to transact and secure their wealth and pay for things without going through a bank or other financial institution. I don't like discrimination, and this could prevent someone like a cam performer from getting a crypto bank account (even though their services are legal, places like PayPal already refuse to have them as customers). This hypothetical cam performer may not be able to get a traditional mortgage, but they could still rent-to-own. I'm sure other products/services would pop up in the future that would allow for people to more safely 'be their own bank'.

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tododiamesmacoisa 1 week ago

> Imagine if all (or a combination of the above) becomes the standard of the industry, is this (as a community) what we are really rooting/lobbying for? Eh, maybe. I mean, even if that becomes the industry standard... This community would develop alternatives, as some of them already exist. The goal of the paper was to prove that Monero can be completely aligned with KYC/AML practices and there's no need to ban it, which would be a lot, really a lot worse than just forcing KYC in the standard exchanges.

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jesuispero 1 week ago

"Standard" exchanges that want to list Monero already do without (almost) none of the above measures. Coinbase doesn't list Monero because they don't want to, period.

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tododiamesmacoisa 1 week ago

Cool. So I don't get your point. This whole whitepaper is literally just ammunition for when people or other entities come around spewing bullshit that they need to ban monero or something like that because it's impossible to apply the existing regulations to it. I prefer to have this ammunition than to not have it.

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jesuispero 1 week ago

That the suggestions they make, if they were to become standard across the industry, would be a disaster for monero users.

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Alex058 1 week ago

I disagree. This is allready standard practice with normal banks/fiat, as it is with buying crypto from VASPS’s with a bit higher volumes. I’d rather have XMR then USD, being sure there’s no unlimited printing AND I can buy stuff without companies knowing what and where I buy my groceries

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jesuispero 1 week ago

Great that normal banks/fiat is the standard we hold ourselves up to these days. Regarding the rest, if your grocery store were to be using a payment processor they would potentially fall under some of this regulations, were they to follow some of this recommendations it's not necessarily true that "companies wouldn't know where you buy your groceries". Also, this paper clearly incentivizes entities to discriminate against "privacy coin" (blergh!) users to a degree of scrutiny that "other coin" users are not subject. That in of itself is concerning, it could also be used by current market participants (that deal with monero with no issues) to change their compliance policies to incorporate some of these suggestions. All in all, it's nothing to write home about, let alone celebrate.

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TrasherDK 1 week ago

Cool. Been waiting for this one forever.

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endogenic XMR Contributor 1 week ago

Great effort on this.

I did notice the following references to auditing Monero exist in the paper...

Specific view keys can be shared with any third party to grant insight into the account associated with the view keys.

...

The confidential transactions feature is a cryptographic tool that allows for verification that no additional XMR has been created or destroyed as part of a given transaction, without revealing the exact transaction amount. ^(42)

...

Unlike the Bitcoin protocol, Monero users have two sets of private keys and public keys (four keys total). The pair of public keys make up the wallet address of a Monero user, whereas the two private keys (the view key and spend key) allow an individual to determine whether an output is addressed to them (view key) and enables the individual to send XMR and determine whether it has been spent (spend key).^(43) To verify transfers of XMR, a third-party observer must know that the XMR is owned by the individual using it. To enable this verification, the individual using the XMR signs the previously received XMR with the one-time address used, thereby proving that the individual knows the private keys and therefore rightfully controls the XMR that the individual is using. The private view key may be given to others to grant transparency into certain details of particular transactions associated with the address or addresses. Monero also contains an optional text field called “tx_extra” that can store arbitrary data in encrypted format. While this text field can be used for a variety of compliance purposes, this use has not been widely recommended by researchers and developers.^(44)

… which are great!

But I personally would like to have seen a small section to show (via the Monero command-line system or a symbolic representation) some techniques, specific tools, and processes of exactly how legally liable entities or operators can, in PC's confidence, sufficiently comply, maybe with some basic examples for different entity types.

How awesome that PC did this!

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fluffyponyza XMR Core Team 1 week ago

> How awesome that PC did this! Just want to point out that they didn't do this of their own volition. Tari Labs commissioned it, and paid for it (with the help of some others).

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endogenic XMR Contributor 1 week ago

Yes, I remember working on an original high level technical description of how Monero works during the MRL workshop which MyMonero and Tari sponsored and Naveen and I put on. We called it a one-sheet and it was requested for this 'regulatory writeup' work. Its on the MRL workshop minutes from back then, sarang, surae and I wrote it in Nashville, but was years before we saw what we became of it so I'm glad to see the post..

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pcre 1 week ago

Can I violate the money laundering law as a private person? Suppose I sell Monero on localmonero.co for cash. I cannot check whether the money comes from illegal transactions. I have to assume the innocence of the other person. The money laundering law turns this around. You have to prove your innocence.

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_o__0_ 1 week ago

With regard to the “ease of crossing borders” factor, privacy coins and other cryptocurrencies present a higher inherent AML risk than cash, which is physically bulky and therefore more difficult to transport across borders, because large amounts of cash would require sufficient physical transportation and passing government border security. But privacy coins and other cryptocurrencies arguably pose a lower risk, in this respect, than cash, card, or paper payment instruments, which can cross borders with no transfer record at all (i.e., not even a publicly broadcast blockchain transaction

.

Where on-chain surveillance tools cannot be used, a VASP would still have ample controls to address AML risks of privacy coin transactions.

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soccersousa 1 week ago

When Coinbase

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Febos 1 week ago

Coinbase can afford to hire their own lawyers to write them this opinion. This is meant for smaller companies.

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TrasherDK 1 week ago

When big daddy tells them they can, or they grow some balls. Whichever comes first :)

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terrim_arque Redditor for 5 months. 1 week ago

Thank you for sharing this. Perkins Coie is very much of the "old generation". It's good to see they're writing about crypto at all.

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onestrokeimdone Redditor for 4 months. 1 week ago

They aren't as "old generation" as you may think. They represented Brave/BAT at ICO which is one of the first and more legitimate operations.

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Febos Opensource Maximalist 1 week ago

They also represented Amazon Amazon in its IPO in 1997.

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ff14store 1 week ago

Safety compliance is important!

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d_goddard 1 week ago

Thank you team Tari

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subarun7 1 week ago

Good opinion, but we need a little more practical effort. I hope this report would be helps to convince the US Congress or crush their irrational regulations in court.

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endorxmr 1 week ago

Those regulations are very rational. Deeply malicious, but rational.

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Kukri4321 Observer 1 week ago

This is a huge feather in Monero's cap, or indeed any of the coins following in their footsteps.

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johnfoss68 1 week ago

Great work, and well done to all those involved in making it happen.

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aminok Platinum | BTC 1321, ETH 1101, CC 422 | TraderSubs 1 week ago

It's very encouraging to see this kind of high-level support for privacy, but I think it needs to be forcefully argued that "anti-money-laundering" laws themselves are a grievance assault on privacy rights.

The term 'anti-money-laundering' is an Orwellian euphemism for warrantless mass-surveillance of private financial interactions, and the existence and steady accumulation of these warrantless mass-surveillance laws is a fundamental affront to a free society.

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tempMonero123 Platinum | QC: XMR 1070, CC 1014, CM 25 | TraderSu 1 week ago

It's important to note that Monero can still be used outside of regulatory oversight just like physical cash can.

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slevemcdiachel Silver | QC: CC 89 | NANO 56 1 week ago

Regardless of your views on privacy, you are correct that this means nothing in practice. The only reason that the current regulations are enough in their eyes, is that XMR (or crypto users as a whole) have to convert to FIAT at some point or another to make their crypto holding valuable and at that point there's KYC all around. So for their perspective there's no need for extra regulations because there's already KYC in one end of the spectrum that applies for (virtually) everyone.

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cesastorson 1 week ago

as a huuuuge lover of monero, I strongly disagree. Money laundering is the mechanism that allows criminals to do crime. Its what makes crime profitiable in the first place. Its why one of the first rules for investigating crime (and investigative reporting for that matter) is "follow the money". Anti-money-laundering laws allow law enforment to follow the money. If buisnesses did not have to follow anti money laundering laws, it would be practicly impossible for law enforment to meaningfully follow the money. I agree they can go to far, especially when it comes to live government monitering of financial transactions, *especially* if such monitering is done without a warrent. But the current regulatory regime is not like that at all. the US only *requuires* buisness to know their custimer, and keep good records (which any good buisness should be doing *anyways*).

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aminok Platinum | BTC 1321, ETH 1101, CC 422 | TraderSubs 1 week ago

> Anti-money-laundering laws allow law enforment to follow the money. If buisnesses did not have to follow anti money laundering laws, it would be practicly impossible for law enforment to meaningfully follow the money. Warrantless wiretapping of all electronic communications would also allow investigators to "follow the conversation", and discover what people are saying and to who, to uncover and solve crimes, but it would give enormous powers to the state over the individuals, and allow for nearly unlimited abuse and concentration of power in the organs of the state. Just as warrantless mass-surveillance of private communication is wrong, so is warrantless mass-surveillance of private financial interactions. Anti-money-laundering laws institute warrantless mass-surveillance. The dangers of totalitarian surveillance far outweigh the dangers of law enforcement not being able to use it to uncover crime. At its worst, the former allows for institutionalized tyranny, as we see in the dystopia that the Chinese Communist Party is creating in Xinxiang. Even milder varieties of mass-surveillance lead to extreme concentrations of power as they create significant information asymmetries between the general public and those who are privy to the information collected by the surveillance agencies. Yes, investigators wouldn't be able to "follow the money" without these totalitarian laws, but that is the price you pay to have a free society where people are secure in their most basic of rights. Money has utility to the extent that it is fungible, and to the extent that it is fungible, then criminals will be able to make use of money they generate from illicit activity. You don't eliminate fungibility in the name of preventing crime, just as you don't ban encrypted communication in the name of preventing crime. If the problem is organized crime generating hundreds of millions of dollars in illicit revenue, then you go after the source, in the activity that is generating the revenue. You don't try to "trace the money" after the fact, once they have already acquired it. The kinds of organizations that produce these huge revenue windfalls leave plenty of evidence trails, in the physical merchandise they move, the people they employ and the victims they create, that can allow any competent law enforcement agency to begin and prosecute an investigation against them. The investigative toolkit available to law enforcement in a society that respects privacy/due-process-rights is still significant. It includes the ability to plant under-cover agents in criminal organizations, to pay and pressure insiders to turn confidential informants, to get a warrant to conduct targetted surveillance, etc etc. And the state can use these tools to focus on the meaningful crime, instead of the "money laundering" that happens after the fact. For example, if it is targeting drug cartels, it can focus on the movement and trade of the drugs themselves, and not a second-order effect of the trade, which is the movement of the money that is generated from the drug sales. It is much easier to detect, trade and prosecute people for the trade of highly restricted Schedule I substances like fentanyl, which is a physical substance, than to stop the flow of cash that is derived from such activity, which will never be highly restricted, and can be done digitally and through innumerable channels. The state should be focusing on the prior, not the latter. By the time the criminal organizations are doing the latter, it is already too late anyway. In other words, if the state cannot stop a criminal organization from trading highly restricted Schedule I substances like fentanyl, to acquire hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue, with all of the legitimate tools at its disposal, it is not going to be able to stop these organizations from moving the money they receive from that trade, regardless of what surveillance powers it is given. The argument that the state needs all this control, to monitor everyone's private financial interactions, is just a cop-out to avoid doing the real work of policing and prosecuting real crime, to exert more government control over the law-abiding majority, and to create more positions in the private banking sector and government bureaucracies, for highly paid "AML experts" and "consultants".

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geonic_ 1 week ago

While I applaud the effort, it's disappointing that they decided to amplify the "privacy coin" meme. "Privacy-preserving" or "privacy-enabling cryptocurrencies" should've been used throughout. I would've also liked to see a section on "privacy-eroding cryptocurrencies", starting with Bitcoin, and how that affects the individual user.

This was an opportunity to change the narrative around this technology and to underline how Bitcoin's radical transparency is the niche, not Monero's privacy-preserving technology. To explain to regulators and others that Bitcoin is unlike *any product* currently available in the financial world. Does any bank offer a transparent account that anyone can peer into? Why not?

The paper also misses some of the more important benefits of fungible money. Guilt by association is a thing with Bitcoin. You need to not only be sure of the person you receive your Bitcoin from, but also be careful who you spend it with, since that person might commit a crime and you are the source of his funds. Bitcoin erodes freedoms on so many levels it is preposterous.

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MoneroFanboy 1 week ago

All the points you make are valid but it also seems you are ignoring what a good thing this is. Yes, it’s not perfect. But yesterday there wasn’t a specific legal axiom for exchanges in the USA to support Monero alongside KYC/AML and today there is. Let’s celebrate that Geonic.

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geonic_ 1 week ago

Cheers! I'll open a beer to that achievement. If it’s enough to get Paul Grewal and Noah Perlman over the hump, I’ll uncork the Barolo.

8

HoboHaxor 1 week ago

Does it really matter? Cryptologists, mathematicians, scholars, security experts, all have testified before congress/senate stating the backdooring crypto just won't work. Yet the keep writing new bills and will until the anti encryption passes.

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SamsungGalaxyPlayer Karma CC: 3278 XMR: 9323 1 week ago

Tons of greats quotes in this one, including some where PC suggests privacy coins are lower risk in practice than Bitcoin, but the conclusion perhaps put it most simply:

"Allowing VASPs to support privacy tokens under current, tested AML regulations strikes the appropriate policy balance between preventing money laundering and allowing beneficial, privacy-preserving technology to develop"

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ethereumflow Redditor for 4 months. 1 week ago

This sounds like rather good news for Monero. For once it’s not “stop privacy”.

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unjack 1 week ago

I still don't see how it helps.

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TrasherDK 1 week ago

Wrong reply.

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Febos 1 week ago

1. It will help random new guy that heard of Monero and then heard FUD how not complaint Monero is with regulations and how will be delisted from all exchanges. 2. It will help small exchanges or small merchants or any service that plan to use or use Monero and was uncertain because of the FUD. Now will normally continue doing what they were doing or start doing it with Monero. And they will point to the paper when people will ask about it. 3. It will help you and me to explain to people, that FUD how Monero dont have future and how only surveillance coins will exist, is false.

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aaj094 1 week ago

Well, for a while it has been a view that exchanges are hesitant to list monero because of regulatory concerns. This paper seems to allay fears that privacy coins are inherently incompatible with current regulatory regimes.

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dEBRUYNE_1 Moderator 1 week ago

In sum:

We conclude that privacy coins protect legitimate individual and commercial privacy interests and that existing financial regulations sufficiently address the AML issues that privacy coins present.

And:

Not only do privacy coins provide public benefits that substantially outweigh their risks, existing AML regulations properly and sufficiently cover those risks, providing a proven framework for combatting money laundering and related crimes.

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PhillyFan1977 1 week ago

Exactly 100% agree. There is no need for any further regulations

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Epidemic_Fancy 1 week ago

Thank you; (and) yes this is a moment we all need to seriously appreciate and remember. We are here in a place of important historical remembrance where we prove our freedom is justifiably interwoven with truth and privacy as well as anti criminal pursuits. Beautifully written and now “peer” reviewed. Thank you to all who have made our wonderful and abstract journey possible. Have a beautiful day.

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CaptainPatent 1 week ago

Glad the attorneys at Perkins Coie have their heads on straight. Hopefully regulators agree.

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geonic_ 1 week ago

Lawyers think whatever you pay them to think. I wouldn't take what they've written as a personally held opinion. Otherwise they would've written it without being commissioned by Tari Labs & Co (and it would've taken them less time, but, you know... they charge by the hour). Does anyone really think Perkins Coie would refuse to argue FOR the government (or any other institution) and AGAINST privacy-preserving cryptocurrencies, if they had approached them first? Because they believe in the technology? Please.

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CaptainPatent 1 week ago

> Lawyers think whatever you pay them to think. "No we don't" -The attorneys of Perkins Coie. *This message has been paid for by a grant from the reddit antagonists fund*

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geonic_ 1 week ago

🤣 Exactly.

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SamsungGalaxyPlayer XMR Contributor 1 week ago

They still stand by their word. Perkins Coie is a well-known, prestigious law firm with their reputation on the line. ***They*** said everything in this whitepaper, not anyone else.

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geonic_ 1 week ago

Not arguing that. I'm saying that I can't judge their moral character by their professional output. >Does anyone really think Perkins Coie would refuse to argue FOR the government (or any other institution) and AGAINST privacy-preserving cryptocurrencies, if they had approached them first? Because they believe in the technology? What do you think about this part?

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SamsungGalaxyPlayer XMR Contributor 1 week ago

I simply don't understand how that question is relevant.

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geonic_ 1 week ago

I was replying to someone who had said that the lawyers "have their head on straight". That implies a moral judgment. If they had refused to argue for the other side or had done the work pro bono, because they believe in the cause, I might be inclined to agree.

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Tallest-man 1 week ago

At long last!! Thanks Perkins!

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Kukri4321 1 week ago

Woo! Been waiting for this!

9

25 12 10

Brooke ⚡️ - @bitcoinmom

RT @jespow: You can't make this stuff up. This timeline is beyond twisted. Certainly didn't see a banking license in the cards when we set out on this mission 9 years ago. We have come full circle, crypto. Looking forward to banking you all and banning the accounts of sketchy fiat peddlers. https://t.co/qCGXvUbsSd https://t.co/9JDJTNg9Fg

261 1563

Miko Matsumura ㋡ - @mikojava

RT @jespow: You can't make this stuff up. This timeline is beyond twisted. Certainly didn't see a banking license in the cards when we set out on this mission 9 years ago. We have come full circle, crypto. Looking forward to banking you all and banning the accounts of sketchy fiat peddlers. https://t.co/qCGXvUbsSd https://t.co/9JDJTNg9Fg

261 1562

Ryan Selkis - @twobitidiot

RT @jespow: You can't make this stuff up. This timeline is beyond twisted. Certainly didn't see a banking license in the cards when we set out on this mission 9 years ago. We have come full circle, crypto. Looking forward to banking you all and banning the accounts of sketchy fiat peddlers. https://t.co/qCGXvUbsSd https://t.co/9JDJTNg9Fg

218 1365

Michael Casey - @mikejcasey

RT @jespow: You can't make this stuff up. This timeline is beyond twisted. Certainly didn't see a banking license in the cards when we set out on this mission 9 years ago. We have come full circle, crypto. Looking forward to banking you all and banning the accounts of sketchy fiat peddlers. https://t.co/qCGXvUbsSd https://t.co/9JDJTNg9Fg

121 806

Barry Silbert - @barrysilbert

RT @jespow: You can't make this stuff up. This timeline is beyond twisted. Certainly didn't see a banking license in the cards when we set out on this mission 9 years ago. We have come full circle, crypto. Looking forward to banking you all and banning the accounts of sketchy fiat peddlers. https://t.co/qCGXvUbsSd https://t.co/9JDJTNg9Fg

121 802

Marco Santori - @msantoriESQ

RT @jespow: You can't make this stuff up. This timeline is beyond twisted. Certainly didn't see a banking license in the cards when we set out on this mission 9 years ago. We have come full circle, crypto. Looking forward to banking you all and banning the accounts of sketchy fiat peddlers. https://t.co/qCGXvUbsSd https://t.co/9JDJTNg9Fg

66 441

Pierre Rochard - @pierre_rochard

RT @jespow: You can't make this stuff up. This timeline is beyond twisted. Certainly didn't see a banking license in the cards when we set out on this mission 9 years ago. We have come full circle, crypto. Looking forward to banking you all and banning the accounts of sketchy fiat peddlers. https://t.co/qCGXvUbsSd https://t.co/9JDJTNg9Fg

148 1224

Preston Byrne - @prestonjbyrne

RT @KPTlaw: This is fairly significant. Kraken charts a path for other crypto exchanges to become full service banks. Big banks better quickly get on board or they’ll lose assets slowly, then suddenly. https://t.co/2jNBUeIzMb

240 1469

Justin - @MindsFiction

This is the cycle where crypto flips Wall Street. https://t.co/70TdFmtCMJ

1 2

John Lilic - @JohnLilic

RT @pete_rizzo_: #Bitcoin 🤝 banking. "Kraken will operate an online and mobile-first banking model. We want to make it as easy as possible for people to access and manage their money via a single-portal client experience." https://t.co/NVV1ISTQk1

8 20

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1

qznc_bot2 3 days ago

There is a discussion on Hacker News, but feel free to comment here as well.

1

T-888 6 days ago

When can I open an account? I am ready!

1

kraken-walter Kraken Support - official 4 days ago

Hello [T-888](https://np.reddit.com/user/T-888/), We are unable to share a specific date at the moment. Consider subscribing to our [**blog**](https://blog.kraken.com) for any announcements. Stay tuned! Walter from Kraken

2

ispynlie 6 days ago

Congrats guys! That hard work paying off

2

vedran_ Future staker 6 days ago

Tweetstorm is way more epic!

1

Yourkeysyourbitcoin 6 days ago

Not your keys, not your Bitcoin

0

Cryptolution 6 days ago

Kraken Financial, as a bank, is required by Wyoming law to maintain 100% reserves of its deposits of fiat currency at all times. If every client were to demand withdrawals of their fiat at the same moment, Kraken Financial would be able to fulfill each withdrawal immediately without regard to how many loans we had outstanding.

How are people not commenting on this? This post has been up for 13 hours and not a single mention of it.

This is fucking fantastic news guys. Things are being done right.

3

RedPill43 redditor for 5 weeks 6 days ago

*say one thing* and do another

1

AllBlackCrypto 6 days ago

so im like here waiting for bankera to let me receive swift transfers from the us to get payed directly to an exchange without needing to convert to euro and kraken goes and buys a us bank. what will happen first. kraken allowing non us persons to open bank accounts to receive an ach which I believe will cost me zero or bankera having a way to receive swift transfers? i cant wait to be able to remove my current bank (dukascopy) from the equation of receiving my freelance payments (in my country there is currency control and the goverment forces you to convert your payments at a very very bad rate)

1

joshuawakefield 1 week ago

This is the just another beautiful step on our eah to $10,000.

3

KoreanJesusFTW Ξ Cryptonian 6 days ago

Been saying this and will keep on at it: IF ETH DOESN'T REACH 10K ON IT'S 10TH YEAR AS BTC DID WHEN IT TURNED 10, I AM CALLING IT A FAILURE. I mean come on. ETH has a far more solid set of offerings, features, utility (it's a platform FFS!) so fundamentals are there. That whole advantage on the being first crypto will matter less over time. 10k is a walk in a park if anything.

1

TrueNorth49th redditor for 7 weeks 1 week ago

Very interesting!! Adoption zone here!!!

2

randomnomber 1 week ago

Kraken needs to go easy on the email spam. I don't need an update on this every day.

0

UnknownEssence 1 week ago

You can turn off those notifications

2

SamsungGalaxyPlayer Karma CC: 3278 XMR: 9323 1 week ago

Removed as duplicate https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/itwlie/kraken_just_won_approval_to_create_americas_first/

1

iguanarchist 1 week ago

So, when will I be able to deposit my paycheck to Kraken for DAI?

5

AllBlackCrypto 6 days ago

i too want the answer to this

1

Spartan3123 1 week ago

This is good for bitcoin

3

Banana_Salsa 6 days ago

Do you think it's good for ripple as well?

0

italianjob16 1 week ago

This is non-news they were already a bank in europe

0

Snwmn88 1 week ago

No they weren't

8

AnselmoTheHunter 1 week ago

I would love to invest in Kraken. Is there a way to do that?

1

steviecrypto redditor for 4 days 1 week ago

This is enormous news for the crypto community. Salute to all you who HODL!

4

CaptainCaveSam 1 week ago

Wyoming is the real hero here with its 13 blockchain laws.

7

cryptolicious501 Silver | QC: KIN 189, CC 176, ETH 42 | VET 51 | Tr 1 week ago

“We would expect to offer a host of new products as we get established,” Kinitsky said. “Those will range from things like qualified custody for institutions, digital-asset debit cards and savings accounts all the way to new types of asset classes. We can engage with securities and commodities and things like that as a bank. So a lot more TBD there.”

Look for JP Morgan to follow suit within a year.

IM assuming as a resident of Texas I wouldn't have access to Krakens services from Wyoming then again it seems as if services they are offering are the same as what JP Morgan would offer? Am I correct in this? IM trying to find out how much of this is a win for crypto.

5

Kraken-Marcus Redditor for 4 months. 6 days ago

Hello [cryptolicious501](https://np.reddit.com/user/cryptolicious501/) At this time we do not have any more specifics to share regarding Kraken Financial. Please consider subscribing to our blog for more details and announcements. [https://blog.kraken.com/](https://blog.kraken.com/) [https://blog.kraken.com/post/6241/kraken-wyoming-first-digital-asset-bank/](https://blog.kraken.com/post/6241/kraken-wyoming-first-digital-asset-bank/)  Best, Marcus from Kraken.

2

cryptolicious501 Silver | QC: KIN 189, CC 176, ETH 42 | VET 51 | Tr 2 days ago

Marcus, Would Kraken be able to offer staking services for ETH Phase 0 before January 2021? Any word on this?

1

Kraken-Marcus Redditor for 4 months. 7 hs ago

Hello,  No word to share at this time. When/if this is to happen it will be announced on our [blog.kraken.com](https://blog.kraken.com)  Best, Marcus from Kraken.

1

cryptolicious501 Silver | QC: KIN 189, CC 176, ETH 42 | VET 51 | Tr 6 days ago

Thanks Marcus

1

ARoundForEveryone Gold | QC: CC 81, XRP 46 1 week ago

I don't know for sure, but Kraken says they will be open to US customers only at first. I don't know if that means any state or more like "we'll take anyone in the US, but individual states may forbid it".

1

taprots Redditor for 4 months. 1 week ago

Very interesting, looking forward to them expanding to europe.

4

lostweaponryu Redditor for 6 months. 1 week ago

This is a nice first step. Just goes to show how early we are in this space. It's gonna be a different landscape in another 10 years for sure.

6

Sfdao91 Redditor for 54 years. 1 week ago

Looking forward when dexes can onramp from fiat.

9

Tuned3f Smokin ETH Everyday 1 week ago

The on-ramp would be skipped in this context.

2

FUSCN8A 1 week ago

Looking forward to the day we don't need fiat.

5

idiotsecant 1 week ago

how would that even work?

3

CodeInTheMatrix 6 days ago

Basically CDBCs I think. Many countries are already onboarding a crypto version of their own currency. There are some challenges mostly to do with the economics. Some countries like to control the printing process aka Tether. So basically a eUSD that is likely distributed by the government itself. This is all in theory

1

phantom-warlord 1 week ago

This, is HUGE. An extremely underrated event.

I just got some questions;

Can you please expedite the process of expansion of kraken financial services into more countries? Expanding to new countries as a bank is alot easier than as a crypto exchange. Is this a priority or not?

Having a bank that accepts fiat and crypto while issuing debit cards, bank statements and is recognised as a bank is a huuuuge plus.

it is very important that you start offering staking services and high yield deposited. Most crypto exchanges offer 5% or more on deposits of stable coins. Offering this on your exchange based wing will be easier than your bank based wing since you dont need to keep 100% reserve, do you plan on offering this in the future?

2

kraken-sam Kraken Support - official 1 week ago

Hello [u/phantom-warlord](https://np.reddit.com/user/phantom-warlord/), Thank you for reaching out to us! Unfortunately, I can't answer your first question since such announcements can only be made officially via email and [blog.kraken.com](https://blog.kraken.com). We do currently offer off-chain staking services for Bitcoin (XBT), USD, and EUR to clients located in eligible countries. For more information on our off-chain staking program, please visit [Overview of Off-chain staking on Kraken](https://support.kraken.com/hc/en-us/articles/360044886311-Overview-of-Off-chain-staking-on-Kraken). Please also visit [Off-chain staking eligibility and availability](https://support.kraken.com/hc/en-us/articles/360044886531) to check for availability. We certainly anticipate expansion of products and services to be announced in the near future, so please stay tuned to our [blog](https://blog.kraken.com) and your email inbox. Best, Sam from Kraken

2

phantom-warlord 6 days ago

Hello. Thank you for your reply. That is great to hear, am looking forward for expansion. Exciting times ahead!

2

clevariant 1 week ago

What new services will this allow for?

5

simplelifestyle 1 week ago

Kraken hopes to offer: > > -Digital asset custody > -Checking and savings accounts > -Wire transfers > -Trust accounts > -Online and mobile banking UIs > -Debit cards > -Account management services > -Little chained-up pens > -Deposit verifications https://twitter.com/msantoriESQ/status/1306247215162241024

7

ebliever 1 week ago

This is awesome and will make life easier for a lot of us dealing in both fiat and crypto. Now, since they are chartered in Wyoming, I just need them to open a brick-and-mortar location in Casper. :-)

3

bitsteiner 1 week ago

Finally a debit card that will work.

6

whitslack 1 week ago

Yes, seriously! No more of this "load fiat onto your prepaid debit card first by selling your bitcoins through our mobile app" bullshit.

6

clevariant 1 week ago

Nice.

3

igadjeed 1 week ago

> Digital asset custody But no digital asset withdrawal Yawn!

0

ebliever 1 week ago

They already have that, silly.

4

IDoThingsOnWhims 1 week ago

These are a list of new things. They obviously allow withdrawal, and actually the support page explicitly states that they are an exchange and not a wallet service.

4

bitsteiner 1 week ago

I assume custody implies deposit and withdrawal.

3

Stalslagga 1 week ago

Sounds big if true

13

coingun 1 week ago

It’s def true! “We are thrilled to announce that the State of Wyoming has approved Kraken’s application to form the world’s first Special Purpose Depository Institution (SPDI), and has granted a charter to Wyoming's newest state-chartered bank, tentatively called "Kraken Financial." Headquartered in Cheyenne, Wyoming, Kraken Financial will enable Kraken clients in the U.S. to bank seamlessly between digital assets and national currencies. From paying bills and receiving salaries in cryptocurrency to incorporating digital assets into investment and trading portfolios, Kraken Financial will be the first regulated, U.S. bank to provide comprehensive deposit-taking, custody and fiduciary services for digital assets. This new institution will be regulated in largely the same manner as other U.S. banks.”

25

idiotsecant 1 week ago

> receiving salaries in cryptocurrency finally, a non-shady way to do this. >paying bills in cryptocurrency sounds like a good way to have a 9000 page tax return.

7

SwagtimusPrime Daddy Swag 1 week ago

>From paying bills and receiving salaries in cryptocurrency to incorporating digital assets into investment and trading portfolios, Kraken Financial will be the first regulated, U.S. bank to provide comprehensive deposit-taking, custody and fiduciary services for digital assets. This is beyond exciting.

13

optimalsolver - @optimalsolver 2 days ago

I thought the whole point of crypto was to break with centralized financial services?

rahimnathwani - @rahimnathwani 3 days ago

More information about Wyoming's SPDI regulations here: http://wyomingbankingdivision.wyo.gov/home/areas-of-regulati...

Banks usually borrow short-term from depositors, lend/invest long-term, and make money due to (i) the upward sloping yield curve, and (ii) profitability pricing credit risk.

If that's how you understand what banks are, then SPDIs seems less like banks (which borrow from depositors) than to safe deposit box operators (which provide a place where depositors can keep valuables they don't want disturbed).

So what is Kraken getting from the SPDI designation? Access to bank payment networks like ACH etc.?

jeremyrwelch - @jeremyrwelch 3 days ago

VP Product at Kraken here. Have questions on the Kraken SPDI? Add them to this thread and I'll answer over the next few days.

If you want to build the SPDI with us -- we're actively hiring for Engineering, Product, Design and more.

hd4 - @hd4 3 days ago

It may help to amend the title to point out that Kraken is essentially a cryptocurrency exchange/trading platform.

adrr - @adrr 3 days ago

So no FDIC insurance on the accounts? That seems like a non starter. I don’t understand why Kraken didn’t just use brokered accounts like every other FI that doesn’t have a bank charter?

jakuboboza - @jakuboboza 2 days ago

I guess Wyoming did release the kraken ;).

historyremade - @historyremade 2 days ago

Don't dance. Don't dance yet. The Federal Reverse not gonna to give you guys a reverse account and without that you would only have licence without any functionality.

hrudham - @hrudham 3 days ago

Not related the article, but I cannot get off of Kraken's mailing list, and they won't stop spamming me. Clicking on the unsubscribe link in any of their emails has this quote in it: "Please note that this process will take 30 days to implement across our system". They they simply don't honour this, despite the 30 days in itself being ridiculous.

companyhen - @companyhen 3 days ago

Majority of HN hates to hear it, but crypto is the future. Onwards!

giantg2 - @giantg2 3 days ago

This makes me want Kraken rum.

mudlus - @mudlus 3 days ago

Funny this was like the day before this article about how banks have corrupted the governance of the world came out: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24535241

I thought banks were the enemy of Bitcoin? Guess it's market cap is high enough that it too must be corrupted by the powers at be.

Yizahi - @Yizahi 2 days ago

Wasn't Kraken one of the exchanges involved in the laundering of USDT tokens, created by Bitfinex out of thin air? I wouldn't trust anyone involved with USDT with keeping safe cut paper, let alone money or securities.

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