Token Daily

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John Lilic - @JohnLilic

Brian is a well reasoned, sensible and mature crypto CEO. Our industry needs more of this! https://t.co/hHfKtqOv4n

1 4

Preethi Kasireddy - @iam_preethi

RT @brian_armstrong: https://t.co/FudJSuaumB

0 1

Tim Pastoor - @timpastoor

I don't often side with Coinbase, but I honestly have no idea why people are upset about this article. It tells that as a business they want to focus on getting work done. How is this even news? What's the issue here? https://t.co/zM1Jx2VidL https://t.co/mrjaYCkzIC

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Linda Xie - @ljxie

While I don't personally agree with some parts, I've always respected Brian's honesty in his leadership. I would much rather see this level of transparency than handwavy remarks that a lot of companies make. Clarifying the scope of the mission is a good thing. https://t.co/K39JZcvytp

0 18

Tony Gallippi - @TonyGallippi

RT @esaagar: Major props to Coinbase CEO @brian_armstrong. One of the few SV CEO's with courage in these times who declares his company will not engage in any issue discourse unless it is directly related to his business https://t.co/RYxdQKCGjR https://t.co/IwGMwDmaD6

359 2543

Nick Tomaino - @NTmoney

Stoicism and focus have always been core strengths of Brian. Coinbase, the crypto industry and soon the world are better for it. https://t.co/t6Uu46GQCf

4 14

Kathryn Haun - @katie_haun

RT @brian_armstrong: https://t.co/FudJSuaumB

180 1270

Dan Romero - @dwr

RT @paulg: Yet again, @brian_armstrong leads the way. I predict most successful companies will follow Coinbase's lead. If only because those who don't are less likely to succeed. https://t.co/3wKYAej7qO

1 22

Jordan Kong - @ImNotJK

RT @SVMansuri: This is @coinbase's "Republicans buy shoes too" moment...and it's disgraceful. Our most vulnerable members of society (Black, immigrant, women, poor, LGBTQ, disabled) and their rights are being attacked by its own government. By saying nothing, you are complacent. https://t.co/clXJyuW7oh

1 2

Katherine Wu - @katherineykwu

absolutely love the "lmao oops u thought the equality we preach about in our lofty mission was about u...no thx luv" energy that this blog post radiates https://t.co/YNrSZuDUgH

0 14

zooko - @zooko

RT @paulg: Yet again, @brian_armstrong leads the way. I predict most successful companies will follow Coinbase's lead. If only because those who don't are less likely to succeed. https://t.co/3wKYAej7qO

41 337

Andrea O'Sullivan - @anjiecast

RT @brian_armstrong: https://t.co/FudJSuaumB

124 889

Pierre Rochard - @pierre_rochard

RT @cyantist: This makes me very bullish on Coinbase! It’s about damn time a company took a stance like this. https://t.co/jAi3RZXucb

102 717

Justin - @MindsFiction

Is Coinbase the only company in Silicone Valley where non-ethnomarxist are allowed to make money? https://t.co/7tKjRMpTcb

0 1

Chandra Duggirala MD - @csentropy

This is a good articulation of why companies need to focus on their core mission and why everything else is a distraction from it. https://t.co/dPCdLpvIx2

0 1

Preston Byrne - @prestonjbyrne

RT @nic__carter: Very impressive post, drawing a strong distinction between CB and the SV zeitgeist. Read between lines https://t.co/rEH8SSY8rr

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nic carter - @nic__carter

Very impressive post, drawing a strong distinction between CB and the SV zeitgeist. Read between lines https://t.co/rEH8SSY8rr

3 31

Balaji S. Srinivasan - @balajis

RT @avichal: 👏 Great post and a great example for other companies. https://t.co/OatG6ILXP0

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Arjun Balaji - @arjunblj

“Coinbase’s mission is to create an open financial system for the world.” Strong leadership and clarity from Brian on Coinbase’s core focus and mechanism of impact. 👏🏽 https://t.co/pDeo85qVdC

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Elad Gil - @eladgil

Great post by @brian_armstrong. I anticipate a lot of companies going forward moving in this direction of more crisply defining their mission and mechanism of impact. https://t.co/mOGnidskOc

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Eric Friedman - @EricFriedman

The mission and transparency of this @brian_armstrong post is great, and aligned with my own thoughts on what he calls a “championship team” https://t.co/Azdqz3oygc Making changes is why I like to say team vs “family” https://t.co/cwmH3QqD9E

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Brian Armstrong - @brian_armstrong

https://t.co/FudJSuaumB

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codyone1 51 mins ago

I am new here, does this sub have a satire tag, because if so this needs it.

Like the article is written about its self, no one would be this dumb to post this if it were not satire.

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sbiff 1 h ago

I don't know if blog posts fit this sub (please downvote/delete if not, but please don't ban. I checked the rules but couldn't find something saying no)

The whole time reading this article, which in my opinion just gets more and more ridiculous as it goes on, a few things jumped out at me:

The lazy and senseless metaphor for his company as a championship team, and using that to justify gems like:

Be company first: We act as #OneCoinbase, putting the company’s goals ahead of any particular team or individual goals.

Sustained high performance: As compared to a family, where everyone is included regardless of performance, a championship team makes a concerted effort to raise the bar on talent, including changing out team members when needed.

Because as we know, companies have historically been a vehicle for positive change in the world. The last sentence even lets me know that he knows it's bullshit.

Change happens in the world only when a smart, talented, group of people come together to focus on a hard problem for a decade or more. Many companies never stand the test of time, because they decide to dabble in unrelated efforts, and distract and divide their workforce in the process. Paradoxically, by being laser focused on our mission, we will likely have an even greater impact on the world, through our products and growing customer base.

There are other gems too:

When we make profit, we can use that to hire more great people, and build even more. We shouldn’t ever shy away from making profit, because with more resources we can have a greater impact on the world.

And then immediately after:

Broader societal issues: We don’t engage here when issues are unrelated to our core mission, because we believe impact only comes with focus.

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iceheartedkiller 1 h ago

On that last one, the core mission of making shit loads of cash? Thought so. Interesting read

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sbiff 59 mins ago

Our ethics are simple: Make more money so that we can make the world a better place by making more money!

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1

chapelierfou 2 hs ago

I think the whole corporate bullshit can be summed up into "I don't like social issues being considered because it can prevent me from earning as much money."

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jstolfi 4 hs ago

He is just bowing to his customer's political preferences. Bitcoiners, by and large, seem to be at the far right end of the political spectrum. Those who claim to like bitcoin because of its social and political potential are admittedly Anarcho-Capitalists. Those who just hope to get rich quick are not likely to value social justice either. A bitcoiner is far more likely to be a White Supremacist than a Socialist...

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greengenerosity 2 hs ago

There is a paper from Middlebury Institute for International Studies at Monterey called "From Classifieds to Crypto: How White Supremacist Groups have Embraced Crowdfunding" The gist is that the main reason why white supremacy groups used crypto to raise funds was a last resort after being banned from conventional payment processors - however, just sending cash and checks in mail has grown in popularity because that can't be seen by the whole world and with no risk of being banned from a crypto exchange due to sending to known banned groups.

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FellatioFellas Redditor for 3 months. 7 hs ago

Brian Armstrong doesn’t know how to use hyphens. Maybe because he’s a developer?

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greengenerosity 7 hs ago

Sustained high performance: As compared to a family, where everyone is included regardless of performance, a championship team makes a concerted effort to raise the bar on talent, including changing out team members when needed.

At least Coinbase does not pretend to be "A Family". Championship team and "Changing out team members" is just corporate speech for no job security. Fall behind the curve and we will fire you, basically rank and yank.

Rank and Yank is a term used to describe a process by which a company ranks its employees against each other, and terminates the employment of the people at the lowest end of the ranking

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merton1111 26 mins ago

What's the problem with that? There are plenty of companies that employ less productive workers.

1

thehoesmaketheman 27 mins ago

Oh boy feels like I'm reading some superior loGiX master on reddit

1

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1

devliegende 11 hs ago

If there is an opportunity for peaceful social changes one should grab it with both hands. Protests, revolutions and civil wars are distractions that destroy a lot more value.

0

chapelierfou 2 hs ago

Some people just won't let injustice in their favor go peacefully.

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thehoesmaketheman 22 mins ago

Ya exactly americans have every advantage in the world and they are screeching and raging like they're the most boot trodden, underprivileged people in the world. It's horrible entitlement. Some people just won't let injustice in their favor go peacefully.

1

devliegende 2 hs ago

Yes. It is unfortunate for them and everyone else. eg. If the southern plantation owners had chosen a peaceful end to slavery they would have lost a lot less wealth than they did. The French royal family would not only have still been alive, they could have been living lives like the British royals.

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jstolfi 11 hs ago

Well,sorry, but "not taking a stance" is taking a definite stance for the status quo.

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Lumeneers 7 hs ago

No it’s not. Just because I’m not a volunteer firefighter rushing to put out fire around town doesn’t mean I’m pro arson.

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devliegende 2 hs ago

If you expend no effort towards fire prevention, then perhaps you are.

1

chapelierfou 3 hs ago

Sorry but it is, even if being comfortable with the status quo can be hard to admit to oneself.

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thehoesmaketheman 25 mins ago

Absolutely not. You get all ragey about something and now everyone has to be mad about your thing and if they're not they're bad? That's insane.

1

jstolfi 4 hs ago

If you are watching the fire and refuse to say whether you think arson is wrong...

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thehoesmaketheman 26 mins ago

Not how it works stolfi. That's ludicrous. You don't get to conjure a way where anyone whos not interested in your particular outrage flavor is automatically a Bad Guy then. That's crazy fascist nonsense.

2

thehoesmaketheman Yesterday

the social activism craze is pretty damn annoying so maybe I agree with coinbase guy for once. hmm

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Cthulhooo 3 hs ago

There's so much bs in this corpospeak peptalk if you read between the lines but this is where the mask slips too much: >Political causes: We don’t advocate for any particular causes or candidates internally **that are unrelated to our mission**, because it is a distraction from our mission. Activism is okay as long as you support candidates that scrutinize us less and work towards realization of our beloved ancapistan.

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thehoesmaketheman 24 mins ago

Wow sounds kinda like incel logic over at r/nofap

1

trustfundbaby - @trustfundbaby 1 day ago

I've found it very odd how freely and openly siding with a political candidate has become the norm since 2016 at the tech firms I've worked in. Even more so, has been the viciousness of the pushback when I've asked for such discussions to be funneled into private channels and forums, with the whispers being "oh he must be a trump supporter", which is pretty hilarious if you know me.

I think this article is a well articulated viewpoint and I hope that more companies move in this direction. There is a reason why for all those years that it was considered a social faux pas to discuss politics and religion in polite company and especially at work, the potential for division, hurt feelings and retaliation can very easily cause deep irreconcilable schisms in even the most talented workforces.

I just hope that this doesn't however transform into something more insidious, a way to muffle very important voices for change with respect to diversity at tech companies, though I have a sinking feeling that it will

You win some. you lose some I guess.

seibelj - @seibelj 1 day ago

The simplest solution to many issues with corporations is to let them focus on what they do best - making money - and not saddle them with tons of additional baggage like

- Making business pay for healthcare

- Making business take political stances

- Making business responsible for caring for the sick / needy / orphans / etc.

Let business make maximum money and distribute it to employees and owners, then let everyone who received money deploy it to their favored interest groups / politicians / activisms / social programs / charities / etc. Much less conflict in regards to business - thinking about them, working for them, differing theories about their role in society, etc. Businesses provide value and earn profit for doing so.

And for things like healthcare, let government handle it, why we let business pay for healthcare in USA is so absurd.

So Coinbase has a good model - stop wasting the whole day getting worked up about political arguments and shaming each other for perceived slights. You can do that after-hours on Twitter and FB as much as you like.

blhack - @blhack 1 day ago

Good.

There is a broader philosophical idea being put to work here: your professional life and your personal life should be able to be separated.

That goes both ways: let me "leave" work when I'm done, but also ask employees to "leave" their personal lives when they're at work.

xoxoy - @xoxoy 1 day ago

I wonder what triggered this blog post - sounds like there must have been some recent internal controversies.

But this just sounds like 1) an excuse to fire people and 2) a warning to never talk about politics at work.

jger15 - @jger15 1 day ago

Commend Armstrong for making this public. A valuable recruiting tool. Imagine other companies will follow suit.

skybrian - @skybrian 1 day ago

Some may disagree, but at least that’s clear. For comparison, here is a nonprofit version:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Here_to_build_an_e...

vmception - @vmception 1 day ago

I love this!

People that need their company to match unrelated causes to them, quit! Go live as a pauper or maintain your subsidized life making room for people that want a job or want to also focus on the laser guided mission!

evantahler - @evantahler 1 day ago

This is a well articulated way to think about leading a company in a time of crisis... when you can assume the crisis doesn’t effect your company.

xiphias2 - @xiphias2 Yesterday

,,Coinbase’s mission is to create an open financial system for the world.''

I will never forgive Coinbase for pushing so hard for centralizing Bitcoin by increasing the block verification time for nodes. I'm happy though that Bitcoin withstand their attack.

So thanks, but no thanks for this message about building a better world.

terramars - @terramars 1 day ago

Wow... this much bullshit makes me really glad I never interviewed for them and recently switched to Gemini... Talk about taking corporate censorship to the next level!

HashingtheCode - @HashingtheCode 1 day ago

Coinbase is on a mission to bend over backwards for the tax man, and willing provide all customer KYC user data and blockchain transactions/details to them.

If you want to crypto, if you want privacy don't use Coinbase.

You can always use LocalEthereum to buy ETH anonymously and then transfer to a private wallet

https://decrypt.co/40685/electronic-frontier-foundation-call...

ciarannolan - @ciarannolan 1 day ago

> But for some employees, working at an activism focused company may be core to what they want, and we want to prompt that conversation with their manager to help them get to a better place. Life is too short to work somewhere that you aren’t excited about, and we’re happy to make that a win-win conversation.

> We won’t:

> Debate causes or political candidates internally when unrelated to our mission

> Expect the company to represent our personal beliefs externally

> Assume negative intent, or not have each others back

> Take on activism outside of our core mission at work

I wish more companies would take this position. I go to work to build great things and work with great people, not to talk about identity or partisan politics.

SirensOfTitan - @SirensOfTitan 1 day ago

I find it pretty concerning the tack of political activism corporations take on. Today it’s something you believe in, tomorrow it’s not, and it averages over time to what’s good for business.

Trade unions or other examples of worker self management are the way to push these kinds of politics. Not all unions need to be the teamsters run by Jimmy Hoffa, the modern white-collar union would and could hardly represent it.

xrd - @xrd 1 day ago

Long ago, another company chose profit over being forced into making moral assessments.

"Indeed, Black demonstrates with great precision that the godlike owner of the corporation, Thomas Watson, was impervious to the moral dimension of his dealings with Hitler's Germany..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust

I have a friend who is a high level Google VP that is very active in advocacy for people less represented at Google and in the world, what I assume people here are referring to as identity politics (I'm VERY interested in hearing if there is a distinction I'm missing). It just occurred to me, maybe he, as a Jewish man, feels like he has seen this kind of thing before, and felt he needed to take a stand.

Mr. Miyagi once said: "Walk right side, safe. Walk left side, safe. Walk middle ... sooner or later you get squish like grape."

alexyz12 - @alexyz12 1 day ago

The ability to have this response seems like a good example of white privilege.

Now Coinbase is choosing to exercise this privilege to more efficiently pursue their goals. As a potential employee, would you like to work at a company choses to do this?

callamdelaney - @callamdelaney 1 day ago

Not seen this much fluff in a while - Coinbase is definitely a profit focused company.

Show all comments on Hackernews

6 3

tldr-hodl 1 day ago

What about LN?

2

Hispanon 2 days ago

Is it open source and non custodial?

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adam3us 1 day ago

yes open source and non-custodial. note bitcoin on mainchain is the best option for uncensorable, unfreezable, unseizable properties. tether and liquid bitcoin make different tradeoffs and are more targetted at traders. however you can use liquid bitcoin and liquid tether etc and get use of confidential transactions, faster final transactions and lower transaction fees if that tradeoff makes sense for trading, or lower value transactions of if you are less concerned about censorship or freeze risk. tether has redemption and issuer risk as well - you are trusting that tether the company has enough dollars, and will redeem them. (typically tether are swapped or traded on a market not redeemed in small quantities, though at larger amounts it is possible direct also.)

6

Realchacal 1 day ago

It looks sleek AF and also simple enough to recommend it to my mother to get started! Will it support Lightning someday? Or doesn't that make any sense because too complicated?

2

hermanskledar 1 day ago

Yes

2

camelanton 2 days ago

Android?

1

bitusher 2 days ago

Smart having 2 products lines, with a similar codebase and just changing the feature set and UX

I look forward to single sig being introduced to Green as that has been the reason many people have avoided green thus far. This way you can use green with your own full node and hardware wallet without depending upon any company and having a simpler recovery option. Green will be almost a perfect mobile wallet with single sig option

Im not a fan of the tether shitcoin support however

7

adam3us 1 day ago

the single sig uses electrum protocol and is connected to blockstream.info explorer which has electrum APIs. so that makes supporting run your own electrum server easy using a number of server options (including your own explorer) see https://blockstream.com/2020/06/16/en-esplora-and-other-alternatives-to-electrumx/ right the single sig uses normal BIP 39 seeds so you can import them from or to other wallets without having to use the garecovery tool needed for green 2fa multisig.

4

bitusher 1 day ago

>the single sig uses electrum protocol Another reason why separating out the product lines was smart. Switching to using electrum servers has its own UX problem because as I have seen with many wallets like eclair on android that do this many times the "public" electrum servers are slow or malicious and one needs manually swap to another electrum server or use their own. This means that a new user selecting single sig might experience some UX issues. This is fine when being introduced to green as an option because that wallet is going to be branded as an advanced wallet but than that leads to another question... If aqua is being branded as the simple , UX friendly wallet and also single sig, and uses public electrum servers, doesn't this present a UX and support problem? In my experience testing , even though I prefer the electrum model, wallets that depend upon electrum public servers are more inconsistent that centralized wallet servers. Perhaps the solution is to have a temporary fallback server that defaults to blockstream's internal electrum server if the user has a problem can click small help icon for better UX and reducing support?

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BitcoinIsSimple 2 days ago

Also when android?

Also I don't spend btc. Yet. But for some reason I do have phone wallets

2

the_bob 2 days ago

Android is in the roadmap. Should be coming soonish.

2

BitcoinIsSimple 2 days ago

Cool.

What are the benefits of using liquid for a consumer ?

2

the_bob 2 days ago

Confidential transactions and quick finality. However, the tradeoff is the different federated trust model.

3

victhroway1234532 2 days ago

cheap fees, faster confirmations and confidential transactions

1

24 4

Cjk7 2 days ago

The hacker appears to be a noob. Tether froze the 19.8m USDT in his address 14 hours after the hack.

He could've swapped the USDT for 50k ETH on Uniswap in a single transaction before it was frozen.

He still hasn't dumped any of the tokens for ETH on Uniswap.

2

cointastical 2 days ago

KUCoin - Trust score: 10 (out of 10).

https://www.coingecko.com/en/exchanges

LOL

3

MrNotSoRight 2 days ago

XD

1

Miffers 2 days ago

People got to stop downloading free porn at work.

0

Todderfly 2 days ago

Covered at what value? The value of the coin at the time of the hacking ?

1

Goosius99 2 days ago

I assume you will just get the original coins back. If it went down oh well.

1

Coins-hodler 2 - 3 years account age. 150 - 300 comment karma. 2 days ago

It's for this reason we need none custodian exchange like Nash. They can't hack what they can't access.

0

Coins-hodler 2 - 3 years account age. 150 - 300 comment karma. 2 days ago

It's for this reason we need none custodian exchange like Nash. They can't hack what they can't access.

0

devliegende 2 days ago

Please rest assured that if any user fund is affected by this incident, it will be covered completely by user fees.

6

madali0 2 days ago

The best part are the people sucking up to the hackers and begging for some of it:

https://etherscan.io/address/0xeB31973E0FeBF3e3D7058234a5eBbAe1aB4B8c23#comments

Truly the financial future we all deserve.

13

rdnkjdi 1 day ago

 \> Wow very epic hack 🤝🙌🏻 I’ve lost everything

1

BobWalsch 2 days ago

Beggars of the future!

2

CityBusDriverBitcoin 2 days ago

Imagine when binance collapse, it will be the greatest meme of all time on the crypto world

4

Xdeertyx Tin 3 days ago

No way they are surviving this. This is how Kucoin ends.

0

earthmoonsun 3 days ago

Kucoin - The ~~People's~~ Hacker's Exchange

0

toasty99 3 days ago

It’s a good thing these people didn’t store their money in a filthy bank full of fiat currency.

14

Alpra_Creem 3 days ago

Funds Stolen Away From U

7

microtherion 2 days ago

Every Buttcoiner's Alma Mater.

5

kneli Silver | QC: CC 361 | NANO 49 3 days ago

USE. A. DEX.

2

Cmdr_600 3 days ago

https://youtu.be/DelF6zEHXpE

6

mookmerkin 3 days ago

I've never seen that before. There was way too much inappropriate laughter. Waaaay too much. I don't know where it was coming from, I'm the only one here.

5

BobWalsch 2 days ago

It's [Bizonacci](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTU7zMqyCsIcaYWwtjemYoQ), his videos are hilarous. Unfortunately he hasn't posted for a while. :(

3

Cmdr_600 2 days ago

So according to the comments on the video I linked , the video had disappeared only to be republished very recently. Meaning that his account had been active . Now according to some 4chan rumours , there is a video series in the works by him. I can't remember exactly what it is rumoured to be but it could be the March crash iirc. This is just speculation , but it gives us HOPE .

3

BobWalsch 2 days ago

Thanks for filling my life with HOPE!

3

dgerard 3 days ago

name change from KuCoin to NoCoin

16

Cjk7 2 days ago

it's pronounced CuckCoin I'm surprised Kucoin Shares (KCS) is only down -10%

2

lenne0816 3 days ago

That was totally my joke !

8

mae_so_bae Tin | r/NBA 18 3 days ago

Morons. Not your keys, not your coins. Lmao

0

Goosius99 2 days ago

Ever heard of trading?

1

ClubsBabySeal 3 days ago

Ooof. Supposedly they're looking at more than $100 million gone.

17

thehoesmaketheman 2 days ago

Couldn't have happened to a nicer group of folks

3

Zaidinator7 3 days ago

This is a nice way to remember that I have 1M sats on there

1

[deleted] 3 days ago

[deleted]

1

Zaidinator7 3 days ago

hope not. Too lazy to check though

2

dick_mayo Tin 3 days ago

https://youtu.be/nRzL0kdUnME

Live stream from Kucoin boss, he looks nervous AF

6

whitebr34d 3 days ago

Oh Christ

1

jinzo222 3 days ago

160M stolen so far and counting

3

Parking_Meater redditor for 3 weeks 3 days ago

dont worry they said they are insured.

0

MrNotSoRight 2 days ago

thanks for the laugh

2

Parking_Meater redditor for 3 weeks 2 days ago

guess a couple people didn't think it was funny so thanks to you my friend.

1

atrueretard 3 days ago

never heard of them, but they are a pretty large volume exchange. average about 2,500 BTC traded each day.

incorporated in Seychelles - East Africa.

3

atrueretard Redditor for 4 months. 3 days ago

they dont know what happened yet, but assure everyone funds are safe? this is a premature PR to prevent the ~~bank run~~ exchange run where everyone withdrawals their crypto from the exchange. (and they should withdrawal)

16

PaulMorphyForPrez Redditor for 1 months. 2 days ago

Well if they have insurance, funds can be safe regardless of what happened.

2

atrueretard Redditor for 4 months. 2 days ago

insurance is a joke for exchanges. have you ever read the terms, typically they say cash is safe but if your holding coins on the exchange your fucked. Also if your indivudal account is hacked the hacker can turn cash into coins and then you're fucked.

1

TheAlchemist313 Tin 3 days ago

they suspended withdrawals

11

atrueretard Redditor for 4 months. 3 days ago

[ah shit here we go again](https://youtu.be/K2ku1A5Ox8U)

8

5 2

6 12

Eric Meltzer - @wheatpond

RT @jinglanW: Story time! Highly requested: Once upon a time we were working on an EVM to OVM transpiler. After weeks of intense EVM debugging we realized this level of abstraction could easily get us 90% of the way there, but the last 10% would be monumental. We needed a different approach. https://t.co/R9l1v1SQG9

56 321

Ash Egan - @AshAEgan

+https://t.co/Re5dLpTsMb +https://t.co/cHyvGm6HZn +https://t.co/gt9nUAUEMu +https://t.co/6ul0ZyEO9f +https://t.co/f7yOBQ5yzB

0 0

Mason & Co. - @masonic_tweets

RT @optimismPBC: At long last - light at the end of the tunnel. Welcome to the first phase of the Optimistic Ethereum Testnet ⛅️. https://t.co/cjfhB0WU98

336 1134

Hayden Adams - @haydenzadams

👏👏👏 Huge milestone!!! Imagine not needing to make any changes to your solidity smart contracts to have a DAPP work natively on an Ethereum L2 with ✅security from Ethereum, ✅massive scaling ✅no data availability issues ✅synchronous interoperability with other DAPPs on L2 https://t.co/P2kdXJ9Dmx

11 34

Karl Floersch - @karl_dot_tech

RT @optimismPBC: At long last - light at the end of the tunnel. Welcome to the first phase of the Optimistic Ethereum Testnet ⛅️. https://t.co/cjfhB0WU98

47 262

$ALEX Masmej ☄️ - @AlexMasmej

*reads* *gets excited about L2* wait, @realGeorgeHotz thanked at the end?? Really?? (he jailbroke the iPhone & the PS3 online network) I need explanation ma'am @optimismPBC! https://t.co/zFQtZjijS8

11 34

Laura Shin - @laurashin

RT @optimismPBC: At long last - light at the end of the tunnel. Welcome to the first phase of the Optimistic Ethereum Testnet ⛅️. https://t.co/cjfhB0WU98

162 557

Ryan Selkis - @twobitidiot

RT @optimismPBC: At long last - light at the end of the tunnel. Welcome to the first phase of the Optimistic Ethereum Testnet ⛅️. https://t.co/cjfhB0WU98

80 265

Jinglan Wang - @jinglanW

Most of the team has been quarantined together and living like animals in the office for the last 6 months (our civilized teammate doesn't live like an animal but he does work like one). We hope you enjoy our output: https://t.co/nvONQM85Hl

11 35

YT - @coin_artist

RT @optimismPBC: At long last - light at the end of the tunnel. Welcome to the first phase of the Optimistic Ethereum Testnet ⛅️. https://t.co/cjfhB0WU98

79 264

Vitalik "Not giving away ETH" Buterin - @VitalikButerin

RT @optimismPBC: At long last - light at the end of the tunnel. Welcome to the first phase of the Optimistic Ethereum Testnet ⛅️. https://t.co/cjfhB0WU98

80 266

Josh Stark - @0xstark

🎉 congrats @optimismPBC! https://t.co/7kwZ83eL3a

25 116

6

20 23 14

$ALEX Masmej ☄️ - @AlexMasmej

Someone beat @danrobinson @gakonst to the dark forest challenge 😉 https://t.co/jGKrLGvc0M

1 1

Antonis Polemitis - @polemitis

RT @danrobinson: A gripping read, especially for anyone who enjoyed our Dark Forest post. @samczsun discovered an exploit that left him in the same position @gakonst and I had been in—but with 1000x as much at stake. A global team worked together to succeed where we'd failed. https://t.co/syfTDSWsrs

15 129

lawson baker : 88发 babafa - @lwsnbaker

Open Finance is cool af https://t.co/7pZFruY5fE

0 0

Ivan Bogatyy - @bogatyy

RT @samczsun: How do you rescue 10 million dollars from a vulnerable smart contract without letting attackers know it’s there? Last Tuesday, @epheph, @sparkpool_eth, @tzhen, @wadealexc, and I found out. https://t.co/WOjO651VIw

348 1015

Nick Tomaino - @NTmoney

RT @roxdanila: Breathtaking read! 🙈 You really don't want to be on the receiving end of a message from @samczsun 😅 https://t.co/jz0WCjckSH

1 4

Denis Nazarov - @Iiterature

— Is someone in trouble? — Me and @samczsun are online. — You two are saving the world? The story of recovering a $10M smart contract vulnerability... 🤯 https://t.co/NUUr4Av9ZS

0 1

Noah Ruderman ⚡ - @devilscompiler

Summary: private transaction services mitigate the dark forest problem. https://t.co/P9ZuHRPD8x

0 0

Wong Joon Ian - @joonian

RT @samczsun: How do you rescue 10 million dollars from a vulnerable smart contract without letting attackers know it’s there? Last Tuesday, @epheph, @sparkpool_eth, @tzhen, @wadealexc, and I found out. https://t.co/WOjO651VIw

248 734

Michael Casey - @mikejcasey

RT @samczsun: How do you rescue 10 million dollars from a vulnerable smart contract without letting attackers know it’s there? Last Tuesday, @epheph, @sparkpool_eth, @tzhen, @wadealexc, and I found out. https://t.co/WOjO651VIw

235 697

zooko - @zooko

What an amazing story!! ❤ https://t.co/E0fFrzT3bs

1 7

Reuben Bramanathan - @bramanathan

RT @samczsun: How do you rescue 10 million dollars from a vulnerable smart contract without letting attackers know it’s there? Last Tuesday, @epheph, @sparkpool_eth, @tzhen, @wadealexc, and I found out. https://t.co/WOjO651VIw

207 629

Taylor Monahan - @tayvano_

RT @PhABCD: "I tested SparkPool’s whitehat endpoint with a meaningless transaction, and it worked as expected: the tx was not seen in the mempool, then suddenly appeared as part of a SparkPool block! It was like watching water vapor turn directly into ice without that pesky liquid phase." https://t.co/gnIenHM7m1

2 2

alex van de sande (4 character handle ? me : bot) - @avsa

The post reads like a heist movie, including the long “getting the gang together” part, beautifully written from multiple perspectives. And yes, this is the a message you don’t want to be in the receiving end of.. https://t.co/48En6dKevq https://t.co/asp194djMj

1 7

Tony Sheng - @tonysheng

RT @samczsun: How do you rescue 10 million dollars from a vulnerable smart contract without letting attackers know it’s there? Last Tuesday, @epheph, @sparkpool_eth, @tzhen, @wadealexc, and I found out. https://t.co/WOjO651VIw

39 119

Downvoter6000 2 days ago

Smart contracts are actually quite dumb. They are literally dumb contracts.

8

HopeFox 2 days ago

So, a team of hackers colluded with a mining pool to steal ten million dollars' worth of mETH from its rightful owners? The rightful owners, of course, being whoever exploited the vulnerable contract first, since code is law.

14

SixLegsGood 2 days ago

Thank god they saved all that ponzi money for the sake of its anonymous ponzi masters. How very noble.

15

MisterInfalllible 2 days ago

I remember when I had the same problem with my real world fiat bank. /s

10

bpnoy3 2 days ago

10 years from now everyone will look back of how dumb and young this industry is and how it has grown

5

AmericanScream 1 day ago

"The Surge Worked!"

1

bpnoy3 1 day ago

Ahhh yes let’s all put our more money in shitcoins. They will always go up !

1

AccurateMycologist1 1 day ago

Yeah, just look at all the crippling technical issues that used to plague cryptocurrencies ten years ago and how many of them have been solved since lol

3

dgerard 1 day ago

how dare you, the crippling technical issues are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT now it's like the early internet

1

Fabint 2 days ago

What in the convoluted garbage nonsense hell is this? God I hate Crypto.

19

aescolanus 2 days ago

See, Ethereum has a ~~bug~~ ~~exploit~~ *undocumented feature*. Instead of taking transactions in chronological order, ~~like Bitcoin~~ (edit: Bitcoin does it too), Eth lets you pay miners extra money to run your transaction first. But transactions on Eth become public *before* they're run by miners. This means, if you're trading, eg, Bitcoin for Eth on an exchange, and someone recognizes you're going to make a profit on that trade, they can copy your transaction with a *higher* transaction fee. Their transaction will complete first, they'll buy whatever you were trying to buy, and your transaction will fail. This is called "front running" and bots are very very good at it. (In a real exchange or stock market, this is both impractical and illegal. But Eth is play money for techbros who never grew up. We can't expect them to understand modern finance.) This article is about how an Eth smart contract had a bug that gave out nine million dollars in Eth for basically free, and how the author got the nine million dollars without front running bots stealing it from under him.

27

AmericanScream 1 day ago

Looks suspiciously like the "invisible hand of the market" giving you a surprise proctology exam. I'm sure the libertarians are cool with this.

1

markasoftware 2 days ago

well, *actuaalllyyyy*, a functional Bitcoin client need not accept transactions in chronological order. In fact, miners have an incentive to accept the highest fee transaction, regardless of when it was received.

11

nootropicat 2 days ago

Bitcoin doesn't take transactions in chronological order, you have a deep misunderstanding on how these systems work. If it did 0conf transactions would be safe. >In a real exchange or stock market, this is both impractical and illegal. Frontrunning is literally the business model of robinhood. They sell order flow to HFT firms then they execute them as they see fit. Everything that happens in crypto happens on 'regulated' markets, it's just less obvious to the public.

0

Ichabodblack 2 days ago

>Everything that happens in crypto happens on 'regulated' markets, it's just less obvious to the public. Thanks for my morning chuckle!

11

aescolanus 2 days ago

>Bitcoin doesn't take transactions in chronological order, you have a deep misunderstanding on how these systems work. If it did 0conf transactions would be safe. I googled, and it looks like you're right. Bitcoin transactions can be frontrun too. I don't know why I expected Bitcoin to be any more secure than any other crypto. >Frontrunning is literally the business model of robinhood. They sell order flow to HFT firms then they execute them as they see fit. [Robinhood says they don't:](https://robinhood.com/us/en/support/articles/stocks-order-routing-and-execution-quality/) >Do you or the market makers use high-speed technology to trade ahead of Robinhood orders? >No. This practice, known as front-running orders, is illegal. I mean, you don't have to believe them, but the difference between breaking the law and risking legal liability, and risking nothing because no law can touch anonymous crypto bots, is pretty huge.

23

greengenerosity 1 day ago

For the sake of argument, if Bitcoin miners did strictly add transactions in chronological order it would still be possible to double spend by the sender spending the same coin to two different addresses at (almost) the same time since different miners could get a different transaction first. Both transactions are broadcast through the network, each miner would get one of them with about 50/50 chances while it can show up to the recipient as pending on a explorer. But even if the first transaction was sent instantaneously to every miner with no chance of double spend or getting ahead in a forced chronological queue a miner could just decide to not include *that one transaction in particular* while choosing to include a later transaction to the same destination from someone cooperating with them. There is a mention of chronological order of transactions in the whitepaper with blocks: > In this paper, we propose a solution to the double-spending problem using a peer-to-peer distributed timestamp server to generate computational proof of the chronological order of transactions. It also used to be possible to send Bitcoins without fees and they would get priority based on how old they were, so that if someone sent sufficiently old coins they would get added and mined for free. So there used to be a time-based priority system of sorts. The difference between ETH and BTC is mostly that trading can happen directly on the ETH ledger/contracts, the exact trade and planned amounts is announced and executed on ETH, perfect for frontrunning by bots. Bitcoin is just deposited and withdrawn to central exchanges so people only get a vague idea of where Bitcoin is moving to-from with no frontrunning potential on-chain. The frontrunning happens on the central exchanges by the central exchanges.

1

Cthulhooo 2 days ago

So moral of the story is unless you're lucky to get a small army of selfless, well connected, dedicated, competent and obviously unpaid volunteers working overtime you can lose millions EVEN IF eventually you notice the fuckup and try to salvage the operation. It's not a dark forest. It's an accursed quagmire.

42

AmericanScream 1 day ago

In sharp contrast with say, using a credit card, where you basically call a 1-800 number and say, "oops I didn't mean that" and get your money back. Money of the future FTW?

3

Cjk7 2 days ago

They were paid in clout. They can use that clout to sell equity and shitcoins

4

Cthulhooo 2 days ago

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CShP0-eUsAANduX.png

2

Cjk7 2 days ago

He will cry when 1 EXPOSURE is enough to buy the entire hotdog cart There will be incentivized pools, big APY, and Twitter influencers soon Few hotdog vendors understand this

1

greengenerosity 2 days ago

Not just any dark forest, **the** dark forest. The author likes a sci-fi book with a environment where being detected or announcing the location of someone else means certain death, which is called "the dark forest". Which is a good description of this particular situation, a situation that requires a literal hidden conspiracy to avoid detection on a public ledger.

12

Shawn-Anderson362 3 days ago

Do anybody know about Ethereum Fruit Bot, is it real or scam

1

elkmoosebison 3 days ago

this better be in the Ethereum movie.

2

aznar 4 days ago

samczsun is a national hero

3

althalusian 4 days ago

With the thumbnail and the topic I half expected this to be a link to some fantasy novel ebook, before I checked which community it was posted in...

edit: an interesting read nonetheless

2

SixLegsGood 4 days ago

"Trustless" "Smart" "Contracts"

2

troyboltonislife 4 days ago

This is really amazing and I respect the people who did this to the highest level. But I am just so shocked after all those agents they interacted with no one just said fuck it and cashed in 10 million. Absolutely amazing and very noble. Glad we have people like this in the space

7

mudgen 3 days ago

There are a lot of honest good people.

1

Smiguelito 4 days ago

Thrilling

4

raymonddurk 4 days ago

I never thought about white hat hackers being responsible for taxable income from an event like this. This is probably the greatest example of technology staying ahead of the law.

9

Oxygenjacket 4 days ago

Yeah imagine stopping a robber from stealing someone's wallet and having to pay 30% tax on the contents of the wallet before you give it back to the victim.

4

btc_clueless 4 days ago

This is a good read. I have been in this space for what feels like "forever" (2013) but my grasp of certain technical aspects is still rather limited. This was kind of eye opening as for whats happening in the mempool. My questions is: Is this how it was intended? Is this "good for Ethereum"?

As a very general note, I have the feeling that blockchain in general and its value proposition in particular are already very hard to grasp for the general public. But smart contract platforms (not just Ethereum) take it to another level. I have been doing some programming in the past but none of this sort and most of this stuff is way over my head. Clearly this is all in an early stage and the buggy, badly audited smart contracts get weed out quickly (sometimes meaning lots of people lose money), but where is this going in the future, if hardly anyone (any non-programmer) can understand the whole process? Personally, I find DeFi an exciting new application but I am not ready to dump any money into any of those token, no matter what kind of profit other people are making with this. I am more of a conservative crypto guy I suppose, as per Warren: don't invest what you don't understand. I do understand Bitcoin, Ethereum and Doge and I am invested in 2 of those 3.

14

brekfaft 4 days ago

The network is "working as intended", but I am not sure anyone foresaw that miners might abuse having access to the mempool in such way. I don't think it was intended for people to comb through the mempool to take advantage of it, but surely the possibility was known. Either way, it would be quite difficult to prevent such a thing because -- unless you have a private mining pool -- transactions need to be public. Maybe zk technologies help here, I don't know.

3

gallak87 4 days ago

I'm not a contract developer nor an expert by any means, but from reading this article and the first dark forest article, I took away that the mempool is no different than any mature market, there are ways to get ahead that end up creating changes. In law enforced markets like stocks, it's a law (or a law lobbied for), in the case of the mempool, it seems like a forcing function for correctness. In the first forest article it was a mistake exploited for bad, in this one it was for good. I can't handle DeFi, it's not for me, but I see it as a stepping stone to maturity. Those fees tho, they definitely are worse for eth than the competition / natural selection going on with the mempool.

3

point_breeze69 4 days ago

That’s smart not to invest in what you don’t understand. That doesn’t mean it won’t see mass adoption. How many people can explain how insurance works or how credit card companies work? Once something is saturated enough in our society and it brings real utility it will gain mass adoption.

7

OptimisticOnanist 4 days ago

Ya, I've never understood this thought--e*specially* when we're talking about something so obscure and specialized as the Ethereum mempool. I'm a blockchain developer and, even if I know a lot about how Ethereum works, I don't even know much of anything about how MySQL works under-the-hood because, "why do I need to know as long as it works?" Yet everyone's obsessed with needing to know how blockchain works for them to not think it's terrible. It's the weirdest thing and I have no clue why, with this specific technology, this phenomenon happens. Maybe it's because the technology itself is what's been mostly talked about rather than the products built on it?

5

-Aerobrake- 4 days ago

Blockchain currencies are easily an order of magnitude more complicated than insurance or credit cards.

0

OptimisticOnanist 4 days ago

Tell me how a credit card transaction works: which company it goes through first, second, third, who profits where, whose reserves money sits in for how long until they transfer it to the next company, how they make that transfer, where it ends up, who's responsible at every step of the process, where's the cash (is there any?) etc. Oh ya, and all the software underlying it all because that's the level of detail we're going through with blockchain. I'll then tell you how a blockchain transaction works: I send a transaction (swipe a card), a miner makes sure my account has enough balance according to their own records then sends it to other miners to check, then they all agree to change the balance in my account. Then we can talk about which one is more complicated.

5

ninja_batman 4 days ago

Have you ever worked at an insurance or credit card company?

8

Hizonner 4 days ago

The fact that they have to do this sort of thing kind of makes you wonder about the point of all this "smart contract" business, no?

0

Oxygenjacket 4 days ago

Firstly, they don't have to do anything. They are choosing to. Secondly, unless we begin letting AI code software for us. There will always be bugs in everything including smart contracts. One of my family members once had $70,000 deposited into his bank account from a banking error. I know 70k isn't 10 million but there's bugs everywhere.

2

Hizonner 3 days ago

... and the bank undid that deposit when it was discovered. I don't even have to ask you. That reversal was part of an *intentionally adopted process* for dealing with *expected errors*. Ethereum was sold on the promise of "code is law". Everything was supposed to be automatic, and therefore cheaper, fairer, harder to tamper with, safer, and more predictable than the old "manual" processes. This of course was premised on the foolish assumption that there would be no bugs. No steps were taken to *assure* that there would *be* no bugs; in fact, the programming language provided was a giant mine field. No defined mechanisms were provided for *dealing* with bugs. No expectations were set about what would even be *considered* a bug. Right out of the gate, people created "the DAO". It had a stupid business model. It also had a stupid bug in it, and, in spite of its having been blessed by the leading lights of the Ethereum community, somebody immediately drained it of something like 80 million US dollars. The response was to *fork the entire blockchain* to add a special case... violating a whole bunch of direct promises in the process. Then there've been a long series of smaller losses, ending up in this "dark forest" situation. And, I'd like to point out, the system has moved money around, but created very little real tangible value, as opposed to enabling weird speculative financial instruments. You may value its *intentional* redistribution of value (I don't)... but most likely Ethereum's *unintentional* redistribution via bugs has exceeded all the *other* value it's created. And now we have people hacking around the system to rescue others from their stupidity. No, they don't "have to" do that in the sense that anybody is forcing them to do it. Yes, they *do* "have to" do it in the sense that **the system provides no other way to achieve their desired outcome**. And their desired outcome is in fact what the system was **sold as providing**. That isn't cheaper than the old manual/legal processes; it involves a lot of skilled work. It's not fairer or harder to tamper with than the old processes; it puts everybody's assets at the mercy of whoever can find the most bugs. It's not safer or more predictable than the old processes; you may or may not be able to deal with any given fuckup. Yes, (nearly) everything has bugs. A smart person designs a system that takes that into account from the beginning. An idiot assumes that everything will work perfectly, builds a giant Rube Goldberg machine, makes a bunch of "code is law" promises, and responds to any undesired consequences by weird ad-hoc patches or by trying to find "bugs in the bugs". Until such time as these failures can be made *vanishingly rare*, smart contracts ADD NO VALUE WHATSOEVER. If that's even possible, you could even make a good argument that every time somebody is rescued from a screwup, it reduces the incentives to actually make the system work. It *definitely* distorts people's incentives to reduce risk by *not using the broken system*. So maybe the most "helpful" thing to do would be just to let idiots take their losses.

0

CharmingSoil 3 days ago

> This of course was premised on the foolish assumption that there would be no bugs. Nope. No one ever assumed this.

1

Oxygenjacket 3 days ago

Okay your first half about code is law.. meh I don't buy it But this reducing the incentive to make secure smart contracts. Sure I agree.

1

epic_trader 4 days ago

The fact that some people contract a virus from going on dodgy websites doesn't make you wonder about the whole "internet" business, does it?

21

alicenekocat Developer 4 days ago

It's funny to see how they managed to organize miners to mine the white hat intervention without letting front-runners know.

It'd be more complex to pull that out in PoS.

1

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1

qznc_bot2 4 days ago

There is a discussion on Hacker News, but feel free to comment here as well.

1

pavlov - @pavlov 4 days ago

Nice work, but honestly I'm not sure why they bother.

The article states that the purpose of these smart contracts is:

"Stake your tokens with us and you could be the next cryptocurrency millionaire"

That's an obvious scam. Anyone who gave real money to such a cause has already lost it. So why is the author giving away his time to help the scammers?

formerly_proven - @formerly_proven 4 days ago

This read like a piece by William Gibson in the Neuromancer universe. I finally understand now why people are attracted by cryptocurrencies.

snake_plissken - @snake_plissken 4 days ago

I still don't understand what's happening at the core of this and the other dark forest post from a few weeks ago. How exactly are these bots front-running/stealing the ethereums?

My understanding:

   -these bots scan the smart contracts that are waiting to be executed by the miners
   -the bots find vulnerabilities (another grey area in my mind) in the contract
   -the bots adjust the destination address of where the contract is supposed to send the the ethereums
   -then the bots continually execute the vulnerable smart contract code

clay-dreidels - @clay-dreidels 4 days ago

All this research into smart contracts and crytpocurrency may seem pointless and a waste of time. It is very risky to dabble in, and I don't think assigning value to these "bitcoins," or whatever they may be called, will be the lasting effect of all this research. Perhaps some new programming language, or something we haven't even thought of, could be the result of these people working on the outer edges of current knowledge.

ladberg - @ladberg 4 days ago

I love that they're continuing the Dark Forest analogy! Makes me also realize I never want to dip my toe in crypto like that. It's like an amateur going up to an entirely unregulated wall street and expecting to earn some quick cash.

askmike - @askmike 4 days ago

I quickly want to point out that we've recently seen a surge in uniswap/bancor based "liquidity pools" (all projects copying each other). The main idea here is that you can lock up your crypto in a smart contract - which is considered "secure" as to no one can steal it (audited code by reputable companies and such). If true the risk is very small with things like impermanent loss, which doesn't apply to all pools.

The idea here is that your money is provided liquidity and you'll get paid a portion of the fees as well as some new token which can have a very high value (for a fleeting moment).

This is important to realize when looking at the crazy marketing around these projects, if it's based on uniswap you can reasonably sure your principal won't get stolen - regardless of the scammy and weird marketing.

superkuh - @superkuh 4 days ago

I guess the take away here is that if you have the right connections then you can bypass the system.

huac - @huac 4 days ago

interesting read - seems like the solution to the dark forest is equivalent to a dark pool in traditional finance?

the logical conclusion is that within a few months we'll have dark pools run by miners who will process your transactions without broadcasting to mempool, in exchange for an increased gas fee. and, within a year, we'll find out that some dark pools sold order flow to those HFT's anyways, a la UBS https://sites.law.berkeley.edu/thenetwork/2015/01/29/ubs-dar...

gabereiser - @gabereiser 4 days ago

When's the movie script due? This was an amazing read mainly for the multiple perspectives and story. Great job!

currymj - @currymj 4 days ago

i tried writing some toy Ethereum smart contracts circa 2016. at that time it was immensely difficult to write them in a secure way -- even a simple "hello world" level Solidity contract could easily have exploitable bugs if you don't code in an extremely defensive style.

i'm told things have improved since then -- can anyone who's used Solidity more recently comment on this? is it true?

this, plus the fact that putting information from the real world onto the blockchain unavoidably requires some trust, seemed like the two big problems then, and it seems like they haven't really been fixed.

squeezingswirls - @squeezingswirls 4 days ago

Addendum https://zengo.com/generalized-front-running-ethereum-arbitra...

iameli - @iameli 4 days ago

Love whitehat crypto postmortems like this. They always read like heist movies.

Curious about the use of SparkPool to bypass the mempool and get the transactions minted directly into a block. It looks like anyone can sign up and contribute their hashrate to SparkPool. Is there a risk of malicious miners running workers in their competitors' pools and then frontrunning?

ve55 - @ve55 4 days ago

Very interesting story, it really does sound like a scifi thriller to me.

It also makes me wonder what type of legal battle would ensue if a blackhat were to have taken all of these funds instead, I'm not sure I've seen any public high-profile cases like that yet.

kevinpet - @kevinpet 4 days ago

Makes me think of salvage operations, and then raises the question of how do people get paid? They're providing a valuable service. I think in shipping there are both conventions and an ability to quickly negotiate that allows contracting for a salvage ship to rush to the aid of a grounded or sinking container vessel.

NKosmatos - @NKosmatos 4 days ago

Nice read! That’s why I respect whitehat hackers, to be tempted by ~10million and then proceed doing the right thing. I wonder if they got a reward/bounty for managing to save all this ETH.

wins32767 - @wins32767 4 days ago

One of my good friends has a saying, "Humans are really good at optimizing the hell out of the wrong thing." I can't help but think that when reading about any sort of heroics involving blockchain.

vvpan - @vvpan 4 days ago

If anybody would like more intense blockchain story-telling check out this longish write-up about Justin Sun's takeover of Steem.it from a few weeks back. https://decrypt.co/38050/steem-steemit-tron-justin-sun-crypt...

itronitron - @itronitron 4 days ago

seems like a very interesting story however after the third voice change I lost interest and the specialized tech jargon just makes it sound goofy

stackzero - @stackzero 4 days ago

cryptocurreny != investment scam. It's just another way to transfer and store value.

Interacting with automated contracts is an interesting extension to that system which can make things alot more complex.

The 'dark forest' comes from a kind of man-in-the-middle attack where anyone can see the order book and exploit it, by putting their own slightly better orders in. Hence the need for co-operation with a closed order book (miner) to get the transaction in safely.

johannes1813 - @johannes1813 4 days ago

I clicked on this really hoping it was related to the Fermi Paradox.

sneak - @sneak 4 days ago

I offer that anyone who did the work that these researchers did would have also been “rightful owners” of that money.

This is the consequence of programmable money; there’s no getting around it, and, in my opinion, people shouldn’t want to. Rescuing people and brands who don’t put the effort into security from the consequences of their own mistakes isn’t a net benefit.

I'm all for anonymous teams, but look at the hoops this person had to jump through just to get in touch with them to report the bug.

When you're anonymous, all you have is your brand, and theirs should have burned to the ground for this entirely preventable error.

Analemma_ - @Analemma_ 4 days ago

This is all very interesting to read about, but in the same way epic battles in Eve Online are interesting to read about but not participate in. I hope the author doesn't think this article is functioning as an enticement to use ETH myself, because it's only confirming for me that I never, ever want any of my money near that shambling wreck.

centimeter - @centimeter 4 days ago

It seems to me that basically no cryptocurrency outside of Bitcoin has its shit together.

Show all comments on Hackernews

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GreystarTheWizard 5 days ago

What would this mean for cardano and others? Is there a need for them if eth2 is a success?

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pas32 6 days ago

Everyone can't wait for this update to happen.

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Ashtehstampede 6 days ago

Last chance to buy Eth below 1k

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Snckbrt_ 6 days ago

Atleast not until eip 1559

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RommelTJ 6 days ago

Why? The amount of locked ETH is going to barely increase and I feel like this might already be priced in. Coupled with US elections pessimism, I want to understand why you think ETH will skyrocket to $1k.

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maxstandard 6 days ago

Please help me understand when you say "the amount locked ETH will barely increase." What are you comparing this to currently? To the best of my knowledge there is not any real ETH locked for staking purposes. The only ETH that locked is testnet ETH which is why the price of real ETH hasn't moved. Once the deposit contract of Phase 0 goes live real ETH will be locked up and will impact the price by being removed from circulation. Additionally, ETH is still being locked in defi contracts. Both of these make a pretty good argument for a greatly increased ETH price in my opinion.

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plaenar ETH maximalist 6 days ago

One scenario is that mostly people who are already holding ETH long term will stake anyways, so those are not really being removed from circulation. Although there is the possibility of some people deciding to acquire ETH to fund validators.

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pegcity 6 days ago

I think it will reduce miner dumping, they will switch to mass staking, this could be a pipe dream though

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iPeculiarly 6 days ago

Slashing will reduce supply, eip 1559 will reduce supply and provide more fair transactions, staking will lock up ether, defi will lock up more. It's got a lot going for it.

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Louisoneth 6 days ago

Slashing won’t have that big an effect, eip 1559 is still a year off, staking might help but defi doesn’t ‘lock up’. The effect may be underwhelming

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raddlepad 6 days ago

So is eth 2.0 might launch this year?

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foyamoon 6 days ago

Sure looks like it

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logiotek 6 days ago

Who cares Q4'20 or Q1'21? Not many. As long as other developments for Phases 1, 1.5, 2.0 keeps moving regardless.

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Antana18 6 days ago

I was about to disagree until reading the second half of your comment. Indeed phase 0 is relatively unimportant compared to the other two phases and the latter ones need to be introduced ASAP. So, I really hope they are already under full steam in getting phase I out quickly after phase 0.

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logiotek 6 days ago

Phase 0 is perceived as unimportant but it's the foundation. It has to be done right and correct.

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Antana18 6 days ago

Agreed!

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TibbersCrypto 6 days ago

So what will happen to the folks with mining rigs?

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spe59436-bcaoo 6 days ago

Either ETC will get more hash or there'll be a new fork. It will cost less for miners than liquidating all mining assets and closing mining businesses. Some miners will refocus to other PoW chains during ETH2 roll out, but probably not much. Difficulty retargets make mining always a theater packed to the edge Even just with DEXes there'll be a lot of volume trading tokens between PoW/PoS versions of Ethereum, a lot of fees for miners, I'd imagine

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DukeVerde 6 days ago

Why fork what was already forked?

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logiotek 6 days ago

Keep on mining until at least Phase 2. And even after that there will be a need for some compute. Bottom line is in blockchain you can stake, provide liquidity to DeFi liquidity pools, sell compute resources, sell bandwidth and storage space, and probably some other stuff nobody thought of yet. Lots of stuff to do to earn.

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ItsAConspiracy 5 days ago

There's no mining after 1.5. Plenty of opportunity to do all the other stuff, just no use for racks of GPUs.

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logiotek 5 days ago

Phase 1.5 just brings current ETH 1.x mainnet onto its own shard chain. All execution is still done on old ETH 1.x EVM. Phase 1.5 will also allow transfers between ETH1 and ETH2 tokens via smart contract on ETH 1.x shard chain. Need Phase 2 (EVM upgrade) to fully transition and move away from mining. And even then there will be transition period of dApp/user migration where you can keep mining.

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ItsAConspiracy 5 days ago

Yes, it's on the EVM, but the consensus algorithm will be Gasper at that point, not proof of work. There's no plan to somehow graft PoW into ETH2.

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logiotek 5 days ago

Like I wrote above, both ETH1 and ETH2 will coexist *at least* until everyone migrates over to ETH2.

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ItsAConspiracy 5 days ago

Only if the miners decide to keep their own PoW fork running. There's currently a demo of ETH1 running inside a Phase 1 shard, with no PoW in sight. That is the plan, and it happens before Phase 2.

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MemeyCurmudgeon Flippant Flippener 6 days ago

Phase 0 mainnet is coming soon (no “™️” necessary)

They're really sure about this one... dare I believe?

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Ayrianne 6 days ago

Well.. what else are you gonna do?

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eth-addict 6 days ago

Short and oh so very sweet. I love it.

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laylaandlunabear 6 days ago

Seems like we are very, very close. Congrats to the devs and community.

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NSErrorWtf 6 days ago

The suggestion that Eth2.0 phase 0 could cause ETH to fail the SEC's Howey test is a new, and somewhat concerning, one to me.

I would love to hear another opinion on this.

https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/pull/2982

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laylaandlunabear 6 days ago

Under the Howey Test, the investor must expect profits solely from the efforts of the promoter or a third party. Here, investors are doing the "efforts"/work themselves by running the validator nodes on their own computers or hardware.

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ItsAConspiracy 6 days ago

I'm no lawyer but neither is Greg Colvin. Imho staking clearly does not make ETH fail the Howey test. > Any profit comes from the efforts of a promoter or third party. The profit does not come from the efforts of a third party. It comes from your own efforts, running a staking node. You're the one validating transactions and building a sequence of blocks, and you get paid for that. > It is an investment of money. It's not even an investment of money. You get paid for doing work. The money is there so the protocol can slash you if you misbehave. If I were to do some kind of contract work for you, and deposited money somewhere that I would lose if I didn't hold up my end of the deal, that money would not be an investment for me. The IRS treats mining as work, too. You don't pay capital gains on your mining income. You get paid for your work and owe regular income tax. When people start doing taxes on staking gains, I bet their excess ETH will also count as regular income. If anyone has made an investment it's ETH holders who aren't staking, but just hoping for ETH to go up. But the government has already decided that if ETH ever was a security, it's not anymore, because now it's so decentralized it's really a commodity.

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PurpleHamster 6 days ago

There’s already several PoS networks running so I’m not totally sure why the concern is there.

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NSErrorWtf 6 days ago

Are there any PoS networks running that allow staking without withdraw/exchange?

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Henrywotton19 6 days ago

Good job ppl, lookin forward to staking for years now

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alexiskef 6 days ago

Thank you Danny!!

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FUSCN8A 1 week ago

Until yield farming destroys itself (and possibly Ethereum in the processes), this kind of news won't stop.

Even if we solve yield farming GAS issues, something else will replace the demand (remember Crypto Kitties?).

All hands on deck to fix the GAS problem now!

Let's finally get off ETH 1.0 and start staking or figure out a way to force the proceeds earned by these high-volume, high earning smart contracts to start subsidizing GAS.

Ethereum like Bitcoin, has unfortunately failed as a technology for its intended purpose simply due to popularity.

This is the limits of Proof of Work for Ethereum and to be honest, I'm surprised its lasted as long as it did.

I think one of the worst things we allowed as a community was removing the time-bomb functionality which forced hard forks. This created forced discourse and change which is now lacking.

It's not too late to change. We just need to remove some of these 1 MB Greg types out of the decision making process and learn to take risks and be OK with failure.

Acknowledging the elephant in the room - failure is first needed (like this Blog has done!) which is a great sign. Next is strong leadership and swift action instead of words.

I still have hope we can pull this off.

Having participated in and surviving the DAOsaster - that was a time of rapid change and risk taking along with strong leadership. We need to be OK with failure even when there's money on the line.

Let's go!

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HodlDwon 1 week ago

That sucks. Was really excited for something like this to work.

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alicenekocat 1 week ago

It's sad to see more projects shut down due to Ethereum's problems. Hopefully more diverse applications are once again possible in Ethereum. In my view, I wouldn't want it to become a DeFi only blockchain.

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InquisitiveBoba 1 week ago

if its possible to be shut down then it wasn't decentralized to begin with

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alicenekocat 1 week ago

FYI most current DeFi "dapps" are not that decentralized either. Many have admin / root keys and trusted third parties. Uniswap is a notable exception.

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InquisitiveBoba 1 week ago

So is no better then finance 1.0 In fact its worse because you can be anon and do rug pulls on lots of people because you don't have to deal with regulation. Uniswap isnt the exception anymore with the governance token. The FED could just print some USD and then buy 51% of the UNI supply and then vote in anything they want.

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foyamoon 1 week ago

Ugh..

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capitalol 1 week ago

I wonder if this is a canary in the coalmine. Which other projects are now quietly closing shop... or moving elsewhere?

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alicenekocat 1 week ago

NFTs and gaming have been moving away from Ethereum for some time now. Remember MLB and cryptokitties? check where they are developing now.

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capitalol 1 week ago

I just looked up CK and it looks like they are still on ethereum, no?

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alicenekocat 1 week ago

They are building Flow another blockchain where they can migrate to.

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redditsucks_goruqqus 1 week ago

Anything that is not DeFi will struggle according to the [guy that runs the top crypto VC, Olaf Carlsen](https://old.reddit.com/r/polkadot_market/comments/iw5ium/not_sure_why_this_wasnt_posted_before_olaf/). I'm legitimately sad that one of my favorite projects - Etheroll - is down to [7 players and 12 rolls this week](https://old.reddit.com/r/etheroll/comments/irzq9a/myetherolls_weekly_game_summary_week_37_2020/). I used to explain the potential of smart contracts to people back in 2017 using Etheroll as an example. It was such a simple dapp that most people instantly got the value of smart contracts: there's no permissions needed, no trust needed... just read the code and press roll.

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reuptaken 1 week ago

Social Sets (part of Token Sets) are struggling, most suspended trading, mine included. It can cost several hundreds USD to start a Set rebalancing process (change of asset allocation)

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edmundedgar reality.eth 1 week ago

Really sad to see, it was such a great project. But you have to respect teams that give the money back to investors once they realize their initial plan isn't going to pan out rather than doing endless pivots until they've spent it all.

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[deleted] 1 week ago

100% this. If you know the project isn't going to work, shut it down, and give back whatever you can.

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Crypto_Economist42 1 week ago

Wrong assumption #1 always seemed like a problem to me from day 1. Suprised you guys even tried to make it work.

All 'freemium' models where multisig wallets are created for free by the service provider on behalf of the user just won't scale in the long run. How can an SP afford even $1 per signup if its trivial to sybil attack that?

Argent will run into this problem also. It's only a matter of time.

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vvpan 1 week ago

Not sure about Unilogin but at the moment Argent requires you to provide your phone number and the account is tied to it. I am no security expert to claim that it prevents Sybil attacks, but so-far it's been working. But yes - being a business subsidizing transactions ain't easy at the moment. Argent better monetize, cause I really like them (they are also #22 on the Eth Gas Station ETH25 Leaderboard, yay).

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trogdortb001 MyCrypto - Jordan 1 week ago

This is a bummer. This is also a FANTASTIC post and outlines many problems, assumptions, and results, and I recommend everyone read this from top to bottom.

Best of luck to Alex and the rest of the UniLogin team in their future endeavors.

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redditsucks_goruqqus 1 week ago

>This is a bummer. Double bummer when you consider that UniLogin is entirely aware of existing and upcoming L2 solutions but found them lacking.

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alicenekocat 1 week ago

Despite on what many think, L2s lack on many fronts. Complexity increases almost exponentially and lack of composability is a real issue that no L2 deals with. That's why the recommendation is always: "Use it if you just wanna move tokens around". Else, build at your own risk. Developer time is precious and finite, you can't just go and explore a production ready app on L2 just because. The switch to ETH 2 also adds an additional dose of uncertainty to the mix.

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epic_trader 1 week ago

Triple bummer when you consider that avsa loudly encouraged everyone else to stop working on login solutions because his team was working on it and made it sound like everyone else would be wasting their time

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redditsucks_goruqqus 1 week ago

I mean maybe he did them a favor though, so minus one bummer?

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duong1989 1 week ago

Good perspectives to keep thinking about.

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LucSr 1 week ago

> You can’t escape the fingerprints of thermodynamics

Assume the real term time preference rate 0.5% and the worldwide average price of one kwh at 0.1 USD and the worldwide narrow money plus gold at 4.61E+13 USD, the annual energy budget to establish trust is 8.29E+18 Joules which is 1.42% of the annual worldwide total energy consumption 5.84E+20 Joules. Assume people don't change ratios of energy consumption of each economy sector as economy expands, the 1.42% of trust token maintenance/production sector remains. It means the energy fingerprints is always not an issue if the mining task can be decentralized.

> Lightning ..

People who buy in the Lightning scale solution may prefer staying off chain forever so OP's argument is not justified.

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Bitcoin_puzzler 1 week ago

Oh no the scalability "problem" is back

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ride_the_LN 1 week ago

Mining is likely to become more distributed we near hard physical limits on efficiency and mining chips are fully commoditized. Remember that electric space heater that mines?

Nobody's making money on lightning fees either, channels are one-time setup and rarely need to be closed. Seems like it's doing fine... anyone having issues?

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LightningHosted 1 week ago

Meme

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Bitcoin_Acolyte 1 week ago

Are we hurtling towards another situation where bitcoiners were promised cheap and free payments only to find out that's not technically feasible but this time with lighting? I think lighting is amazing but the last time this conception and reality diverged it caused the bitcoin community some major growing pains.

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TheGreatMuffin 1 week ago

Despite the controversial title, I encourage anyone to give it a read, there are some good thoughts in it.

The TL;DR of the biggest point is: [large scale] mining is impossible to pull off without a thermodynamic fingerprint. This could create a systemic risk because miners are subject to their jurisdiction's laws/KYC obligations.

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bitusher 1 week ago

This also means there are some benefits to small scale mining over large industrial mining. If large industrial miners are targeted by regulators , thieves , or terrorists this simply is an added inefficiency they take on to counter the efficiency of scale encouraging more decentralized mining that cannot easily be tracked and regulated. There are also some overlooked things in this article as far as other ways lightning is scaling leading to more efficient use of onchain capacity like splicing or the fact that larger onchain fees can amortize across millions of lightning txs.

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Gaspa79 1 week ago

Yeah, that's a good TL;DR. Some points are just... moot? Like the crushed expectations part. The author is plain wrong about something: it talks about the flood and loot attack on LN, and how things like that motivated the bcash split for bigger blocks due to unreasonable expectations. That's simply not true: having an 8mb block will not solve any of those "crushed expectations". Those things had nothing to do with the split. Also, if you think the attack the author linked is possible with a 2-4mb (segwitted) blocksize but it's not with an 8mb blocksize you're dreaming. Furthermore, the core idea of comparing the lightning network attack to the blocksize is wrong: For the attack to happen there should be a lightning 'backlog' of transactions that are much, **MUCH** bigger than what an 8 megabyte block would be able to handle. So what's the point here? "Lightning doesn't scale that much, and look at this attack. Oh, things like these motivated the split... but not even a 10mb block would solve this volume, so the split was useless to address this." What's wrong with this part of the article is that the author seems to know what he's talking about, but he is just combining his/her scattered knowledge of btc stuff into a bunch of nonsense.

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TheGreatMuffin 1 week ago

> The author is plain wrong about something: it talks about the flood and loot attack on LN, and how things like that motivated the bcash split for bigger blocks due to unreasonable expectations. That's simply not true: having an 8mb block will not solve any of those "crushed expectations". Those things had nothing to do with the split. Hm, I don't think he is talking about block size. I also don't think he means that a split will have anything to do with a block size itself, he is just giving an example of the previous split off caused by the block size controversy (some people's expectations of cheap tx's/large blocks got "crushed"). And makes an analogy that in Lightning people expect cheap and micropayments to work out infinitely, which might not be the case in the future and lead to disappointment of those people. It doesn't seem to me he is talking about specific Lightning attacks, but about the consequences on the "social layer" (disappointment by overpromises/hype/misunderstanding) and lots of infrastructure being broken because it relied heavily on micropayments being viable. Anyway, what is your opinion on the mining part?

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bittenbycoin 1 week ago

Does bitcoin need 150 ExaHash to survive?

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TheGreatMuffin 1 week ago

This isn't a "yes or no" question. The answer depends on how much energy and hardware investments those 150 exahash represent and how easy it is to acquire those. The number is relative and doesn't give much absolute information about the security level of the network. The more important question is: how easy is it for a malicious party to reach the majority (or a significant portion) of the hashrate? Also, hardware efficiency improves over time, so even if 150 exahash sounds massive today, it probably won't sound so massive anymore in a few years time.

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soontobesilenced redditor for 3 months 1 week ago

When you're powerless to help, all you can do is complain.

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