Token Daily

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JazHeadburn 2 hs ago

Good thing there is competition. Metamask is underwhelming

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Scoobytwo 4 hs ago

That’s great. Brings adoption etc to crypto, but doesn’t have anything to do with Braves unique advertising ecosystem.

Who knows, they may integrate the BAT SDK soon!

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mandhshirley 4 hs ago

Can you explain briefly what the SDK is? Thanks

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Scoobytwo 4 hs ago

It’s one of the best parts of this whole project. It’s basically the software developer kit that other apps, games, and browsers can install to reap the benefits of the BAT ads platform. When they announced the project, they were immediately pinged by Mozilla and others to learn more. Brave is the proving ground, while everything else is where the ecosystem really takes off.

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mandhshirley 3 hs ago

Excellent! Thanks for explaining!

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buttercoffee13 5 hs ago

This is what I was afraid of. Brave/BAT with all their employees and offices around the world getting passed up by other companies large or small for taking too long to release anything. They still have an advantage but the longer they take the smaller it gets. Ads have been delayed 5 times in almost 3 years, what are they waiting for? Are they waiting for another browser company to beat them to crypto ads, then release?

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lukemulks BAT Team 2 hs ago

"Ads have been delayed more than 5 times in 3 years" This is not accurate. Our token sale was on 05/31/2017. We integrated the token in our browser in Oct 2017. We just completely overhauled the entire desktop browser to make it more ready for mainstream adoption. It is 12/13/2018. Opera putting an ETH wallet in mobile doesn't compare, and no one is touching or even approaching rewards-based ads that utilize tokens and are private by design. Providing an alternative to the existing monetization scheme that works takes time. It is better than rushing it and putting out something that sucks.

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SteveBro1 3 hs ago

What companies cancelled or declined deals with Brave?

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buttercoffee13 2 hs ago

Where did I say companies declined deals with brave?

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danirosen80 Crypto God 5 hs ago

Be brave

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vyhvdrujnbdryu 3 - 4 years account age. 100 - 200 comment karma. 5 hs ago

Excellent news, good to see Ethereum adoption pushing ahead. Have switched to Opera on my Android phone, will install desktop version too.

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milkman163 6 hs ago

Didn't know Opera Winfrey was a crypto enthusiast. That's gotta be bullish.

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CryptoKujira 6 hs ago

Brave is part of something much bigger, which is changing the broken ad revenue model that currently exists in the online world.

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alivmo 6 hs ago

Not really competition, Brave is a lot more than just crypto in the browser.

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rmhick2 7 hs ago

Edit: let's see what happens.

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cryptochecker 7 hs ago

Of [u/buyeverydip](https://www.reddit.com/u/buyeverydip)'s last **8** posts and **986** comments, I found **7** posts and **900** comments in cryptocurrency-related subreddits. Average sentiment (in the interval -1 to +1, with -1 **most negative** and +1 **most positive**) and karma counts are shown for each subreddit: Subreddit|No. of comments|Avg. comment sentiment|Total comment karma|No. of posts|Avg. post sentiment|Total post karma :--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:-- r/binance|3|0.34 **(quite positive)**|3|0|0.0|0 r/BitcoinMarkets|60|0.08|233|0|0.0|0 r/LitecoinMarkets|30|0.04|147|0|0.0|0 r/CryptoCurrency|48|0.18|224|0|0.0|0 r/ethereum|3|-0.07|-14|0|0.0|0 r/ethtrader|597|0.09|938|0|0.0|0 r/BATProject|159|0.13|475|7|0.36 **(quite positive)**|166 *** ^(Bleep, bloop, I'm a bot trying to help inform cryptocurrency discussion on Reddit.) ^| [^About](https://www.reddit.com/user/cryptochecker/comments/7q3jum/faq_about_ucryptochecker/) ^| [^Feedback](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=jamcowl&subject=cryptochecker%20bot)

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CloakedCrusader 3 hs ago

bad bot Really, what a strange way to judge somebody's comment. "Here, let me tell you how exactly how to hivemind this one."

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ntandry 7 hs ago

This is actually pretty legit but I don't know of many people that use Opera as their web browser...

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umib0zu Crypto God 11 hs ago

Nice. So if you need a quick fix on the Ethereum network, status.im has a great mobile app with built in Web3 support. So far Augur, CryptoKitties, and EthFinex all work directly on the browser. I haven't gotten a chance to try MakerDao and I do know Bancor just doesn't work since they don't support Web3 yet. Hopefully more mobile browsers will have it built in.

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bkornblith 6 - 7 years account age. 700 -1000 comment karma. 12 hs ago

What percentage of the browser market does opera have again?

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Turboviktor 5 - 6 years account age. 150 - 300 comment karma. 12 hs ago

3.35% in July ~~2107~~ 2017 atleast. Edit: 2017

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bkornblith 6 - 7 years account age. 700 -1000 comment karma. 11 hs ago

Thanks for making me giggle but that sounds optimistic :p

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Turboviktor 5 - 6 years account age. 150 - 300 comment karma. 11 hs ago

It's what it said on wikipedia but i dunno.

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bkornblith 6 - 7 years account age. 700 -1000 comment karma. 11 hs ago

Also desktop market is losing relevance as mobile market becomes more important where opera has what? .000000x percent

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Turboviktor 5 - 6 years account age. 150 - 300 comment karma. 10 hs ago

Also accoring to wikipedia it Opera has 4.51% of the market share on mobile devices in November 2018 and 0,8% of Tablet devices.

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bkornblith 6 - 7 years account age. 700 -1000 comment karma. 10 hs ago

No way! That again sounds high - I wonder if it’s usage or ‘installed on device once and then never used again’

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Turboviktor 5 - 6 years account age. 150 - 300 comment karma. 9 hs ago

Yeah, i agree it sounds high.

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johnbmaclemore Bull 3 hs ago

That probably includes Opera Mini which is the only browser on a lot of really low end feature phones in the developing world. If this gets integrated into Opera Mini it could be huge for banking the unbanked.

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bkornblith 6 - 7 years account age. 700 -1000 comment karma. 11 hs ago

Ah, I read it back when it was 2107 hahaha

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Turboviktor 5 - 6 years account age. 150 - 300 comment karma. 10 hs ago

Haha yeah, I noticed after i replied to your comment :D.

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Snyyppis 11 hs ago

What's Ethereum's price in 2107?

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Turboviktor 5 - 6 years account age. 150 - 300 comment karma. 10 hs ago

Hopefully things have turned around by then..

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Hobbz2 10 hs ago

12 fitty

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Slippyslavy Crypto God | CC: 31 QC 13 hs ago

next update? i just checked and dont see it.

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aminok Crypto God | ETH: 65 QC | CC: 32 QC 6 hs ago

Try to go to an Ethereum enabled site.

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carlslarson Developer 14 hs ago

This article is another fine one. No need to censor coindesk.

edit. spelling

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triangular_evolution 1 - 2 years account age. 200 - 1000 comment karma. 8 hs ago

Maybe they got scared of the possible ban, and are temporarily not pushing as much FUD? Only time will tell if that's the case..

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HeyDude696252073652 Redditor for 2 months. 13 hs ago

Sensor

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carlslarson Developer 13 hs ago

oh god

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jtnichol Big Hugs From KC 12 hs ago

"God" is capitalized.. (just ribbin' ya LOL)

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dwindlingfiat Redditor for 6 months. 16 hs ago

Fuck Condesk

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ILikeTheBlueRoom :doge: 6 hs ago

As much as I dislike Coindesk as an organization for their historical bias, this piece seems quite fair - it looks like it's just describing what happened in pretty neutral terms. We as a community should be better than this.

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aminok 15 hs ago

Very counter-productive..

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dwindlingfiat Redditor for 6 months. 15 hs ago

Very biased, and out right dishonest company producing hit pieces on Ethereum to prop up their Bitcoin maximalist owner.

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aminok 15 hs ago

This is not a hit piece. There is nothing to gain from attacking Coindesk when it publishes an informative articles like this.

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c0mm0ns3ns3 13 hs ago

you don't get it - they still are a news company and need at least to pretend they're not biased with articles like these ... however if there's one thing that's 100% sure: coindesk and its owner are regularly trying to make eth look bad whenever they can

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ILikeTheBlueRoom :doge: 6 hs ago

I'm sure that referring to them as "Condesk" and posting 2 letter replies to fairly neutral articles is the way to improve things \\s.

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je-reddit Flippening 14 hs ago

s/coinbase/coindesk

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aminok 14 hs ago

Cheers!

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[deleted] 15 hs ago

[deleted]

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aminok 15 hs ago

Opera has 3% of the total browser share, which on the global scale means something like 100 million internet users. You're saying this is not important news for Ethereum adoption?

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mnemosyne-0002 chibi mnemosyne 1 h ago

Archives for the links in comments:

By Aurondarklord (en.wikipedia.org): http://archive.fo/6X5B4

I am Mnemosyne 2.1, Cause we're going to shout it loud, even if our words seem meaningless. It's like I'm carrying the weight of the world. ^^^^/r/botsrights ^^^^Contribute ^^^^message ^^^^me ^^^^suggestions ^^^^at ^^^^any ^^^^time ^^^^Opt ^^^^out ^^^^of ^^^^tracking ^^^^by ^^^^messaging ^^^^me ^^^^"Opt ^^^^Out" ^^^^at ^^^^any ^^^^time

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archangelgabriel12 2 hs ago

this could get interesting

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KazarakOfKar 2 hs ago

Except crypto is still too volatile to be a primary form of payment. If it went up and down say even 30% in a given year that is one thing; we see fluctuations of many hundreds of percent in both directions. A business cannot live off of that kind of instability.

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revofire pettan über alles 3 hs ago

What did I say about crypto? Told you.

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Environmental_Table 4 hs ago

hubris

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hga_another 2 hs ago

Which is then followed by [Nemesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis_$mythology$).

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CrankyDClown Groomy Beardman 5 hs ago

The real weakness of crypto lies with exchanging it for actual money. We've already had at least one case in Norway where the bank just shut down an account and froze all assets because the guy who ran the exchange couldn't document that the money had not been involved in any form of crime. I believe that's through either an EU regulation or some other international reg.

So yeah, banks can very shut down crypto.

I'm not even going to touch on the bubble aspect of the whole shitshow.

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SsaEborp 4 hs ago

People don't get that even if you aren't *touching* a "bank" in your transaction path, the banks can fuck with entities for accepting crypto, or just go crying to their pet regulator in any jurisdiction and have them go after you for them. In general, the crowd currently driving crypto are utterly naive as to the power and reach of the Owners of the pool they are pissing in.

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nodeworx 102K GET 5 hs ago

Unfortunately hard crypto itself is being more and more outlawed...

What's needed is a cryptonomicon style data haven...

Neal Stephenson predicted this shit and the need for this kind of stuff almost 20 years ago...

...

The alternative is to host your stuff the same way most of the piratebay etc. type stuff has been doing... In countries with loose laws and no extradition to the US or anywhere 1st world.

Crytpo itself isn't the end all be all of the story if your data is hosted in a country the requires a backdoor into anything and where strong crypto isn't even legal.

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makkenx 5 hs ago

Oy vey! Crypto is anti-Semitic, stupid goy!

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the_nybbler Friendly and nice to everyone 5 hs ago

The funny thing is Israel is a crypto powerhouse.

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KusoShiteNero 6 hs ago

If there's one thing the internet is never lacking in, it's autism. Upon reading this, there are a lot of people who will exclaim ORLY and make it their mission to destroy his payment system.

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SsaEborp 6 hs ago

Literally NO ONE can no-platform our new crypto shop.

As someone working with crypto, and watching the shit slog he's been on, I understand why he is hype. But the Banks are ABSOLUTELY still capable of using financial regulators and various treaties like MLAT and others to fuck with your payments.

EDIT: There was a book I read a million years ago by an investigator about concealing your your assets and dropping off the radar. This was pre-9/11 and WAY pre-smart phone, so most of the specific advice is out the window, but one part of it stuck with me. This guy would lay out each method and then point out the weaknesses and compromises that it brought with it. Nearly every one ended like this: "If you follow this advice, you should be fine. The only exceptions would be if you're wanted for murder, drugs or "they" want you really bad." The first two, or the suggestion of them would be under MLAT. That last one well, think Julian Assange.

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archangelgabriel12 2 hs ago

mlat is enforced by governments and we all know if the us government wants to shut u down they will shut u down. one way or the other

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ihatesomanythings 3 hs ago

Was it *Hide Your Assets and Disappear* by Edmund Pankau? That is a really good book.

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CartoonEricRoberts 4 hs ago

> "they" want you really bad. Can't we just drone this guy?

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KazarakOfKar 2 hs ago

If they want you real bad and it won't attract attention they will just Marilyn Monroe you.

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sp8der Collapses sexuality waveforms 2 hs ago

CAN WE DRONE STRIKE PEWDIEPIE

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hga_another 2 hs ago

Got to wait until he's in some very crowded, public area like London.

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hasapoint 4 hs ago

A cabal of neo-Liberal activists used the IRS as their personal ideological attack dog to shut down Progressive and Conservative political speech. If you think you're bulletproof, I've got three letters for you: #I. R. S.

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SsaEborp 4 hs ago

>Muh books are clean! Guess what homie, IRS/SEC/FTC/Treasury don't give a #FUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK

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Neo_Techni Don't demand what you refuse to give. 6 hs ago

SJWs: Challenge accepted

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Aurondarklord unwoke bluepilled shapeshifting reptoid 6 hs ago

But if somebody wants to trade crypto for anime lolis on your shop, YOU'LL deplatform them, right?

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sciencemile All terrorists are, essentially, pissbaby bitches. 3 hs ago

So you're saying somebody else needs to start a payment processor specifically for that <_< which uses LoliCoin

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CartoonEricRoberts 3 hs ago

If a crypto shop is actually implemented properly even the people running it wouldn't be able to deplatform someone.

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Steampunk_Moustache 4 hs ago

Unironically discussing how to bring about a second holocaust: A-ok Drawing a 4000 year old vampire loli catgirl who likes headpats and sucking dick: Forbidden

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henlp Descent into Madness 4 hs ago

Test their puritanism with the very easy test of presenting an immortal loli and a random female anime character that is canonically underage yet has a design of a developed body. Then ask them who's legal and watch 'em squirm.

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Steampunk_Moustache 3 hs ago

[3-8 years old](https://www.fightersgeneration.com/characters/dizzy-acc.jpg) [901 years old](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/48/42/86/484286275804136867ed1827f88e9d37.jpg) Which one am I allowed draw porn of?

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CartoonEricRoberts 2 hs ago

Do you actually think the canonical age of the character has any bearing on whether the person jacking it is a pedo or not?

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ComplexRadish Agent of S.E.N.P.A.I. 57 mins ago

> whether the person jacking it is a pedo or not? Question: If an actual pedophile masturbates to a porn star who is of age, but looks young, is that wrong?

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CartoonEricRoberts 31 mins ago

Whether it's wrong doesn't come into it. If someone makes porn with someone of legal age that somehow looks prepubescent they are clearly going for a certain market.

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RevRound 1 h ago

The problem is that there are a ton of people who will cite the age of a character in anime and say they are underage and therefore pedo. However in anime age is basically an arbitrary number. A 13 yo anime character with a fully developed body is no more of a loli than some canonically 20 year old character. But hundred year old lolis are common enough to be a trope at this point. So when people play that gotcha game it really just exposes how much they don't get anime. Also, and even more importantly, there is literally no victim with fictional characters. Is fapping to lolicon gross? Sure, but nobody is being harmed. Once that involves real people then gas the fuckers.

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CartoonEricRoberts 1 h ago

I don't care what they do. It's the constant smug "It'S nOt ChIlD pOrN" refrain that comes up every fucking time. There are some things that a person should not be smug about.

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Steampunk_Moustache 1 h ago

>It's the constant smug "It'S nOt ChIlD pOrN" refrain that comes up every fucking time. But the smug "It'S ChIlD pOrN" refrain that comes up in response to the canonically 16 [hatsune miku](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d3/09/30/d30930f0f14aafc13b4028a66ce4277d.png) is fine? Canon age matters for Miku, but suddenly doesn't for other characters? Why?

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CartoonEricRoberts 56 mins ago

Because that weebshit isn't drawn as a literal prepubescent child. There's a line.

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Steampunk_Moustache 34 mins ago

>Because that weebshit isn't drawn as a literal prepubescent child. There's a line. So now you're back to arguing that so long as something *looks* like it's not a prebucescent child, it's okay to wank to? You still haven't answered this for me: Without googling, tell me which one of these girls turns you into a pedophile if you have naughty thoughts while looking at them. [This one?](https://c1.staticflickr.com/2/1001/1466093997_e5702abfd8.jpg) [Or this one?](http://www.rayout.cl/wp-content/gallery/saaya-irie/saaya012.jpg) In fact, you seem to be actively avoiding providing an answer.

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Steampunk_Moustache 1 h ago

Well, the reason we have a legal age of consent is because children are generally too uninformed, and too lacking in their own agency to really consent in a meaningful way. The reason is *not* 'cause they look like children', or it would be illegal to fuck short, skinny flat-chested 18 year olds with baby-faces, but legal to fuck 12 year olds with D-cups. ...So in case of a drawing of a fictitious person, why *shouldn't* the canon age - or at least canon *mental age* matter? Without googling, tell me which one of these girls turns you into a pedophile if you have naughty thoughts while looking at them. [This one?](https://c1.staticflickr.com/2/1001/1466093997_e5702abfd8.jpg) [Or this one?](http://www.rayout.cl/wp-content/gallery/saaya-irie/saaya012.jpg)

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CartoonEricRoberts 1 h ago

The canon age doesn't matter because they are drawn to look like children. Not teenagers. Not young adults. Children. And sorry, but no, the short skinny adult doesn't look like a child; they just look like a short skinny adult.

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Steampunk_Moustache 1 h ago

>no, the short skinny adult doesn't look like a child Are you referring to the one I linked a picture of, or are you saying that no 18 year old girl can look like a child?

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CartoonEricRoberts 4 hs ago

That's retarded. Nobody cares the canonical age of your child waifu, Muhammad-san.

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Steampunk_Moustache 3 hs ago

>Muhammad Masamune-level edge

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henlp Descent into Madness 5 hs ago

All jokes aside, that is a massive point of concern. Is Torba gonna be completely hands-off the service? Will he actually default to US Law? Or will he throw a temper-tantrum and start banning people that asked him a technical question on Twitter that day?

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Aurondarklord unwoke bluepilled shapeshifting reptoid 5 hs ago

Oh I'm not kidding. Gab claims to be a free speech service, but they're no better than Twitter and just more dishonest about it if it's really "free speech except when I'M offended".

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CartoonEricRoberts 4 hs ago

Porn isn't speech. At least it has never been considered so in the United States. Sorry, but you're going to have to tack on a political message to your illustrated child porn.

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Aurondarklord unwoke bluepilled shapeshifting reptoid 3 hs ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McAeQiLmEYU

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CartoonEricRoberts 3 hs ago

Actually is totally correct.

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Aurondarklord unwoke bluepilled shapeshifting reptoid 2 hs ago

Go on then, cite the SCOTUS decision that says porn isn't speech. It has to actually say porn, not an ambiguous "I know it when I see it" that could mean anything.

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CartoonEricRoberts 2 hs ago

Miller v. California.

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Aurondarklord unwoke bluepilled shapeshifting reptoid 1 h ago

And where's it say that porn isn't speech? Let's see that quote.

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CartoonEricRoberts 1 h ago

THAT WAS LITERALLY THE ENTIRE CASE YOU DINGUS!

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B-VOLLEYBALL-READY The internet was a mistake. 6 hs ago

More interested in that Patreon alternative from Gab that's supposedly in the works.

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revofire pettan über alles 3 hs ago

If that has crypto too, that'll be perfect. Finally more notice to those who don't know what crypto is and how it far surpasses what we currently have in terms of censorship.

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AntonioOfVenice 6 hs ago

Sad that this is necessary, and it will have disastrous effects in the long run - terrorists, criminals, etc. will make great use of crypto.

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Loftyz47 6 hs ago

>it will have disastrous effects in the long run - terrorists, criminals, etc. will make great use of crypto. Freedom from the global banking system that enslaves countries and starts wars, fueling the military industrial complex and shackling future generations with trillions in debt without their consent. Yea, freedom from that is terrible because of some criminal bois. Nothing to be said about the criminal bois in the global banking system?

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AntonioOfVenice 6 hs ago

> Freedom from the global banking system that enslaves countries and starts wars, fueling the military industrial complex and shackling future generations with trillions in debt without their consent. "Logic can lead you from A to B. Imagination can lead you anywhere." - Albert Einstein

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christianknight 6 hs ago

This is good. In a post modern world the truth speakers are the terrorists.

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AntonioOfVenice 6 hs ago

Yes, but in an ideal world, governments would actually be interested in protecting us against threats, and we wouldn't need to use things like crypto - so they'd have a free hand in those using these things for malicious purposes.

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Red-Lantern 6 hs ago

An ideal world wouldn't need government to protect the people. All people would be good and cooperative.

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AntonioOfVenice 6 hs ago

You cannot change human nature. You can change human institutions. In theory, you can imagine a state where institutions are so structured that politicians are incentivized to do good. Not saying it will happen, of course. But "politicians ruining it" seemss a more valid complaint than "human nature is rotten".

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Red-Lantern 5 hs ago

The very same idealized structure you posit relies on people to operate. If you can't change human behavior under idealized circumstances then you can't have an ideal government. In other words. Perfect govt needs perfect people. Perfect people have no need of govt.

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AntonioOfVenice 5 hs ago

> The very same idealized structure you posit relies on people to operate. If you noticed, I talked specifically about institutions that incentivize certain behavior (culture does too but it is even less malleable). If we could create institutions that operate like the 'invisible hand' in the market, things would improve, but of course, we won't. What we need to do is to improve them at the margins.

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R3ddit_Is_Trash 6 hs ago

This was a given once crypto became a thing.

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stonepitbull141 7 hs ago

What about lolis?

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SaltedSeaBass 2 hs ago

"It's not free speech if I'm offended by it"

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immanuel79 7 hs ago

Gab has re-opened their shop, and their payment processor appears to internally use crypto-currencies!

They also briefly commented on their intention of opening a Patreon alternative after their recent unfortunate totalitarian turn of events, which adds to the good news!

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OrphanedPixel 35 mins ago

Sorry to ask, but could you catch me up on what happened with Patreon? I haven't trusted them much ever since they screwed over a bunch of content creators out of their income a while ago and triggered a ton of fraud notices, but I'm curious as to what happened this time around for people to refer to them as totalitarian?

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lokitoth 7 hs ago

Literally NO [thing] can [sink our new ship]

Do not say things like this. Murphy and the internet take that as a challenge.

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Steampunk_Moustache 4 hs ago

That was my first though, too. Even if you believe that to be true, why say it? Why put the challenge out there?

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M3GAGAM3R1988 72k GET 6 hs ago

Famous last words. Jesus there's hubris and there is THIS level of pride. Dont fucking underestimate your enemies you idiots.

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kriegson The all new Ford 6900: This one doesn't dipshit. 3 hs ago

At least they can have some "Friends" shake out the bugs for them now and show them just how wrong they can be.

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Erithal 6 hs ago

Aye. Seems the prelude to a Titanic mistake.

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Jekless 2 hs ago

Gentlemen it's going to be an honour playing with you.

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mnemosyne-0001 archive bot 7 hs ago

Archive links for this post:

Archive: https://archive.is/LB2my

I am Mnemosyne reborn. I have noticed this link. Pray I do not notice it further. ^^^/r/botsrights

1

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Donald McIntyre - @TokenHash

RT @hasufl: "Bitcoin detaches property rights from the legal system and the monopoly on violence. For the first time, we can have property that does not rely on a local authority to enforce and protect." Part 3 of our Skeptics series, this time again with @zhusu https://t.co/pj9hbR0vnN

53 184

Hugo Nguyen - @hugohanoi

A great addition to the topic of how Bitcoin revolutionizes property rights. This time @hasufl & @zhusu broke things down from the cooperation angle: Bitcoin breaks Dunbar's # without the state. The visualization of the institutional stack should be in every economic textbook. 🤓 https://t.co/da5oBiShpM

0 1

Christopher Wheeler - @Stocktrader

RT @hasufl: "Bitcoin detaches property rights from the legal system and the monopoly on violence. For the first time, we can have property that does not rely on a local authority to enforce and protect." Part 3 of our Skeptics series, this time again with @zhusu https://t.co/pj9hbR0vnN

41 158

Kevin Pham - @_Kevin_Pham

RT @yassineARK: The full implications of Bitcoin are all but unimaginable. Bitcoin unlocks new dimensions of value. Standing entirely on its own, Bitcoin enables the highest level of property rights to anyone in the world, no matter the quality of their social institution. https://t.co/1BRX3ISzNT

5 15

Dennis Parker⚡️ - @Xentagz

RT @yassineARK: The full implications of Bitcoin are all but unimaginable. Bitcoin unlocks new dimensions of value. Standing entirely on its own, Bitcoin enables the highest level of property rights to anyone in the world, no matter the quality of their social institution. https://t.co/1BRX3ISzNT

5 15

Spencer Bogart - @CremeDeLaCrypto

This is a profound (but difficult to understand) implication of decentralized public blockchains like Bitcoin https://t.co/YtrRbdkFxj

1 9

Dan Held - @Dan-Held

RT @hasufl: "Bitcoin detaches property rights from the legal system and the monopoly on violence. For the first time, we can have property that does not rely on a local authority to enforce and protect." Part 3 of our Skeptics series, this time again with @zhusu https://t.co/pj9hbR0vnN

12 45

Marty Bent - @MartyBent

RT @hasufl: "Bitcoin detaches property rights from the legal system and the monopoly on violence. For the first time, we can have property that does not rely on a local authority to enforce and protect." Part 3 of our Skeptics series, this time again with @zhusu https://t.co/pj9hbR0vnN

11 43

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Tuur Demeester - @TuurDemeester

RT @coindesk: Germany’s second-largest stock exchange, Boerse Stuttgart, is set to launch crypto trading in the first half of 2019. https://t.co/XS8lnpiMfX

808 1662

Matt Odell - @matt_odell

"Germany’s second-largest stock exchange, Boerse Stuttgart Group, is set to launch a cryptocurrency trading platform in the first half of 2019...Both individual and institutional investors will be able to trade on Boerse Stuttgart’s crypto platform." https://t.co/dgQ29ereDr

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dj Thistle - @DJThistle01

RT @IamNomad: woah.. Boerse Stuttgart entering the market is significant. if you dont know the name google it. https://t.co/DxSkf8omRs

33 98

Collin Crypto - @CollinCrypto

RT @coindesk: Germany’s second-largest stock exchange, Boerse Stuttgart, is set to launch crypto trading in the first half of 2019. https://t.co/XS8lnpiMfX

698 1443

sicarious - @Sicarious_

RT @coindesk: Germany’s second-largest stock exchange, Boerse Stuttgart, is set to launch crypto trading in the first half of 2019. https://t.co/XS8lnpiMfX

595 1231

Anne Connelly - @Anne_Connelly

RT @coindesk: Germany’s second-largest stock exchange, Boerse Stuttgart, is set to launch crypto trading in the first half of 2019. https://t.co/XS8lnpiMfX

554 1134

Adam Back - @adam3us

RT @coindesk: Germany’s second-largest stock exchange, Boerse Stuttgart, is set to launch crypto trading in the first half of 2019. https://t.co/XS8lnpiMfX

545 1113

Christopher Wheeler - @Stocktrader

Major German Stock Exchange to Launch Crypto Trading Platform https://t.co/fgiWZESeVm via @CoinDesk

0 0

฿TF%$D! - @CryptoHustle

RT @coindesk: Germany’s second-largest stock exchange, Boerse Stuttgart, is set to launch crypto trading in the first half of 2019. https://t.co/XS8lnpiMfX

414 845

Barry Silbert - @barrysilbert

RT @coindesk: Germany’s second-largest stock exchange, Boerse Stuttgart, is set to launch crypto trading in the first half of 2019. https://t.co/XS8lnpiMfX

327 648

Dennis Parker⚡️ - @Xentagz

RT @iamjosephyoung: Europe's crypto market has been relatively small for years possibly due to regulatory uncertainty. Some changes are starting to happen. 1. Germany's stock market investors to be able to trade crypto by next year 2. Switzerland has Amun crypto ETP 3. Sweden Nasdaq has Bitcoin ETN https://t.co/QsfBTfc7Gu

16 64

Joseph Young - @iamjosephyoung

Europe's crypto market has been relatively small for years possibly due to regulatory uncertainty. Some changes are starting to happen. 1. Germany's stock market investors to be able to trade crypto by next year 2. Switzerland has Amun crypto ETP 3. Sweden Nasdaq has Bitcoin ETN https://t.co/QsfBTfc7Gu

16 63

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Mr_Deep_Research Yesterday

Funny they aren't raising the money in crypto tokens and want dollars instead.

3

Whattodo-goodppl Redditor for 5 months. Yesterday

They know they are getting less and less users and aren't USD approved with subpar (compared to competitors) trading UI and infrastructure. Let's see if some rich guys will buy at a "discount" 300 million, from their 4 billion dollar evaluation.

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Etherduck Moon 16 hs ago

>They know they are getting less and less users and aren't USD approved with subpar (compared to competitors) trading UI You know how many users they have? There is no competition for EU market that comes even close in liquidity. Cryptowatch (that was bought by Kraken) UI works perfect... SEPA deposits and redrawels always go trough within 24 hours. I'm a Kraken fan yes... :-)

2

btchodler4eva Yesterday

Sounds like Mr Powell is cashing out. Asking for 4 billion without specific plans on how to spend it? Lol.

1

homm88 Yesterday

Raising at a 4 billion valuation does not mean that you're raising 4 billion. Lets say the investors only decide to invest 40m in total, so they get 1% of the company for that 40m. (since the valuation for 100% is 4b)

4

CrystalETH_ Yesterday

Lol, so Kraken is worth about half of the Ethereum network

2

TeamJinx Ethereum fan Yesterday

[https://avc.com/2018/12/when-markets-overcorrect/](https://avc.com/2018/12/when-markets-overcorrect/) Agree

1

HydraGene redditor for 3 months Yesterday

They are just preparing for 3rd of January. So that they can buy enough lent out Bitcoin back to be able to let user withdraw their coins. ;)

0

jimbonezz Yesterday

Maybe they can start by fixing their support first

2

T3nsK10n3D3lTa03 Redditor for less than 60 days Yesterday

It's a bad time to be investing in the shitcoin space as it could all be going to zero. Only the strongest and sufficiently capitalized companies will survive the next few years. Looks like Kraken are on the ropes, hence the desperate plea for funding. Investing in that is about as smart as investing in Bitmain IPO when they're being bled dry by the hash war.

0

chainxor Yesterday

If you read the article you will see that Kraken are profitable and their investor round is not an IPO. The investment is for an aquisitions war chest. Many companies in the crypto sphere are cheap now and it is a perfect opertunity for the healthy businesses (like Kraken) to buy up and consolidate. Maybe Kraken can buy nChain when they are done mining at a loss and suing people left and right without developing anything of use themselves :-D Oh...wait that won't make sense since they're worthless.

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biffnipples Yesterday

Hey. Expect to hear from ayers lawyers for this libel. /s

3

AutoModerator Yesterday

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1

ABitcoinAllBot Yesterday

Here is the link to the original comment thread. Or you can comment here to start a discussion. Author: dnivi3

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skadamo80 Yesterday

Alot of this seems easy to us. But it needs to be easy to grandma and the sister in-law who cant even figure out how to use her cellphone.

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mishax1 Yesterday

!lntip 1000

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lntipbot redditor for 3 months Yesterday

Hi u/mishax1, thanks for tipping u/madppiper **1000** satoshis! *** *[^(More info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/lntipbot/wiki/index) ^| [^(Balance)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=lntipbot&subject=balance&message=!balance) ^| [^(Deposit)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=lntipbot&subject=deposit&message=!deposit 10000) ^| [^(Withdraw)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=lntipbot&subject=withdraw&message=!withdraw put_invoice_here) ^| ^(Something wrong? Have a question?) [^(Send me a message)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=drmoore718)*

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knight222 Yesterday

Is Santa Claus real?

4

madppiper Yesterday

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

Perhaps a bit news-worthy - one of the original developers just left us a positive respone: https://www.scipioerp.com/2018/12/12/is-lightning-ready-for-commerce/#comment-378

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Danny1878 Yesterday

!lntip 100

2

lntipbot redditor for 3 months Yesterday

Hi u/Danny1878, thanks for tipping u/madppiper **100** satoshis! *** *[^(More info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/lntipbot/wiki/index) ^| [^(Balance)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=lntipbot&subject=balance&message=!balance) ^| [^(Deposit)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=lntipbot&subject=deposit&message=!deposit 10000) ^| [^(Withdraw)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=lntipbot&subject=withdraw&message=!withdraw put_invoice_here) ^| ^(Something wrong? Have a question?) [^(Send me a message)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=drmoore718)*

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diydude2 redditor for 3 months Yesterday

They're really stretching in the "difficult to use" section. "1. Go to exhcange. 2. Buy Bitcoin 3. Open a wallet. 4. Put Bitcoin in wallet"

Making a piece of toast must be hard too. "1. Go to bread box. 2. Take out slice of bread 3. Open toaster 4. Put bread in toaster"

Setting up LN nodes and channels for businesses will probably be a great business in the next few years.

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severact Yesterday

In the Customer Section they have "Open a New Channel" and "Fund the New Channel" as two separate steps. In the channels I've manually opened, I've always done it in one step. I didn't even know opening an unfunded channel was an option.

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dalebewan Yesterday

I argued with this guy on his last article... I wouldn't bother. Essentially he's just a troll trying to pretend to be a "helpful developer pointing out valid concerns" when his concerns are - in reality - utter nonsense. One common tactic he has is to say "technology x has a problem" and when you point out that it's not the technology he backs off to "application that implements technology x has a problem" but once you try to actually get him to understand that, he ignores it and shifts back to "I already proved that technology x has a problem" while jumping in with personal attacks and so on.

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madppiper 17 hs ago

Ah, so we meet again: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/a3mgbm/the\_issue\_with\_bitcoin\_in\_commerce\_applications/eb7ct2i](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/a3mgbm/the_issue_with_bitcoin_in_commerce_applications/eb7ct2i) I honestly don't understand why it is me who is personally attacking you, when you were the one calling me an incompetent developer over at that thread and here again - which I pointed out there, too. Honestly, I don't understand this habbit of yours. I made an argument, make yours and move on. Shouting down people who disagree with you isn't any way for the technology to progress. Also: you owe me a checkout over at scipioerp.

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po00on Yesterday

I agree. He just cited LNDs Macaroon / TLS authentication routine as 'a problem'. *shakes head*

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madppiper 17 hs ago

The article covers various aspects of why Lightning is currently unattractive for business applications. The TLS / Macaroon bit i adressed above in specific again. What makes you think that the other bits don't matter to developers/merchants like us?

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po00on 15 hs ago

If security is a drawback in the eyes of your business, you probably shouldn't be handling customer funds to begin with.

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madppiper 14 hs ago

Again, not an answer, but yes, let's leave it like that.

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mr_li_jr Yesterday

That's an oversimplification of how to buy Bitcoin for many people. What about KYC and verification on the exchange? What about wiring the money over from the bank?

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dalebewan 19 hs ago

And none of that should ever be in the description of how to *use* it. Acquiring bitcoin and using bitcoin are two completely separate processes, so all the OP is doing in this article is making it out to be more complex than it really is. He claims to be "just trying to be helpful", but his overall message is one of "I had problems making stuff work, so these are obviously fatal flaws and the whole technology is crap, so don't bother trying". Some of the problems he points out are real, but they're minor things that any reasonable development team would work around during implementation (and hopefully submit fixes/improvements back as open source to make it easier for others in the future). Others aren't even real problems and are totally down to his incompetence as a developer and/or failure to understand the technology.

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madppiper 17 hs ago

I think we had a discussion before over at this thread: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/a3mgbm/the\_issue\_with\_bitcoin\_in\_commerce\_applications/eb7ct2i](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/a3mgbm/the_issue_with_bitcoin_in_commerce_applications/eb7ct2i) I patiently addressed your concerns there - no need for name-calling again, yea?

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dalebewan 17 hs ago

>I think we had a discussion before over at this thread: Yes, we did. >I patiently addressed your concerns there No you didn't. You ignored nearly everything I said and continued just making nonsensical statements in a shotgun style approach so that it was impossible to highlight them all effectively without wasting a huge amount of time, so I eventually just gave up and stopped answering you. >no need for name-calling again, yea? I didn't call you any names (anyone else reading can go check the thread if they really like) and I'm not planning on doing so here either. That said, I'm also not planning on answering you anymore in this thread either because honestly I feel it'd be a waste of my time and yours.

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madppiper 16 hs ago

That's unfortunate, but alright.

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madppiper Yesterday

Hi @diydude2, and thanks for the feedback. Just a quick note though: is it really that much of a stretch? I understand that you are a fan of the technology - and hey, in a way so are we - but keep in mind that unlike you, not all our reads may have an understanding of how it works. If you want it to work for everyone, you have to be a bit more precise here... I should also mention: over the course of our work, which lasted for several months, we installed both c-lightning and LND several times. Not a single time was it easy enough for us to do within a day or two - even after we'd written down the steps. My intention is not to shit on the software, the guys are fixing something I believe is not right in the Bitcoin world, but to give some insights into what's missing for wider acceptance.

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po00on Yesterday

1. Download LND 2. Launch LND: > ./lnd --bitcoin.active --bitcoin.testnet --bitcoin.node=neutrino --neutrino.connect=btcd0.lightning.engineering --autopilot.active --autopilot.private --autopilot.minconfs=0 --autopilot.allocation=0.95 --rpclisten=192.168.0.4:10006 --listen=192.168.0.4:10016 --restlisten=192.168.0.4:8086 --alias poonode --profile=9098 Done.

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max0x7ba Yesterday

On step 2 your money got stuck on the exchange because your account is unverified.

3

FlipDetector Yesterday

It is ready to fail.

5

hawks5999 Yesterday

“But because of how Lightning currently is implemented, scaling the system will have its limits. Without the ability to scale, Lightning will remain unattractive for larger installations.”

But but but.... I was told LN fixed scaling. Don’t tell me I was misled.

/s

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RageTester Yesterday

Which commerce is ready for lightning network?

-Those that will succeed

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RoscoRoscoMan Yesterday

Yes. It's great.

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theartlav Yesterday

As payment performance also needs to be reliable, merchants will want to also reduce dependence on single Lightning installations and therefore distribute their own traffic to multiple servers. Clustering, running several servers redundantly, is a cornerstone strategy for successful online businesses. The problem: Lightning does not really implement the means to allow for this kind of distributed setup.

Huh? What are they talking about? I don't see what could stop you from running multiple nodes on multiple servers and load balance between them.

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cantgetitforyou redditor for a day Yesterday

For starters: How do you get the service stateless if it relies on a database backend like SQLite?

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neuralhax0r Yesterday

use a distributed/HA database such as Citus, Cassandra, DynamoDB, etc.

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madppiper Yesterday

Hi theartlav, OP here... I fear that you may have misunderstood the point I was trying to make: It doesn't matter if you can set up multiple Lightning nodes. If each lightning node is hardwired to a limited amount of business applications, it will not perform well, because it will force you to install a full bitcoin node, a lightning node each time you want to setup a business application.  Think of it like this: If you are, for example, running an ecommerce application, which processes the checkout, you would want it to share the hardware resources with as little as possible, simply because larger eCommerce applications are expensive (licenses can easily cost a hundred grant and more) and everything that makes it less productive is costly. Likewise: you want the Lightning nodes to be distributed in such a way so that if one fails, the ecommerce systems continue to function. Atm this is not possible.

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Talkless Yesterday

>because it will force you to install a full bitcoin node I believe Lnd has Neutrino support, which does not require running full node, it will work with remote peers that implement Neutrino.

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madppiper Yesterday

>I believe Lnd has Neutrino support, which does not require running full node, it will work with remote peers that implement Neutrino. That's an interesting bit of information, thanks! I thought that neutrino was just a light-weight client. So you probably still need the lightning node to get your own payment channels in place. But it is an interesting notion - and we will take a second look at it, thanks

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po00on Yesterday

Neutrino is built in to LND, so doesn't require a base Bitcoin node. There's no reason why you couldn't spin up multiple nodes and author a load balancing script to manage traffic between them. You could use separate Bitcoin wallets or have them share the same one.

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madppiper 17 hs ago

Like explained above: we always saw neutrino as a client, not as a node-like structure. If it works like a client, it won't be an option, because you can't use a GO application from inside a Java application. If it works like a server and allows us to connect from the application server to a local neutrino client via grpc, it could simplify the setup a bit, in that the neutrino client would then connect to the lightning nodes and our application server could just rely on local resources for the connection. I checked the documentation and haven't seen anything that would point me to the above, but it is worth checking out, thanks.

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po00on 14 hs ago

Sounds like you need to do a lot more research. Bitcoin is peer to peer. There are no 'servers' in architectural terms. Every node is a client. Neutrino is a protocol. Specifically one that relies on compact filters as opposed to downloading the full blockchain. There's nothing to stop you rewriting the GO implementation of Neutrino in Java, (assuming that you actually can't just bundle the GO binary). You should swing by one of the Lightning developer slacks. You'll learn a lot quite quickly which should help you over these initial hurdles ...

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madppiper 14 hs ago

No, you are absolutely right. I am the one who should do that. Never mind the feedback, it is enough that Lightning only works for demo implementation. But I think we can cut the discussion short: You disagree with the points somebody who works full-time on large client installations makes. Understood. Let's move on.

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po00on 11 hs ago

works? or plays .... ? Your estimation of the SSL & macaroon implementation as a hindrance should be a major red flag to any prospective clients or employers.

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madppiper 10 hs ago

You know, it is interesting. Out there in the real world, the actual developers behind LND all responded kindly to the article: > Thanks for this excellent and fair assessment of the lightning network. I am one of the people working on the protocol and getting this kind of feedback from relevant industries is extremely valuable. - Rene Pickhardt  > Keeping it real: nice write-up. Lots of work to do. - Rusty Russel  or making proper suggestions on how to improve the setup: >You can download a prepared blockchain from a already running node in your data center or even provision your server base images with a blockchain (would need monthly updates then). Also checkout the FAST-Sync that BTCPay-Server is using: [https://github.com/btcpayserver/btcpayserver-docker/tree/master/contrib/FastSync](https://github.com/btcpayserver/btcpayserver-docker/tree/master/contrib/FastSync) \- Fulmo  and yet, here on Reddit, there's you. Who hangs himself up on one aspect of the article and instead of taking the feedback and working with it, he insults the author.  Sorry, but, grow up. References: [https://www.scipioerp.com/2018/12/12/is-lightning-ready-for-commerce/](https://www.scipioerp.com/2018/12/12/is-lightning-ready-for-commerce/) [https://twitter.com/rusty\_twit/status/1073090107308048384](https://twitter.com/rusty_twit/status/1073090107308048384) [https://twitter.com/fulmolightning/status/1073143077475442688](https://twitter.com/fulmolightning/status/1073143077475442688)   

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Talkless Yesterday

Please note that mos popular implementation, bitcoind, does not have Neutrino implementation *yet* (it's in btcd if I recall correctly), so global Neutrino-supporting node count is limited. Not sure if it have impact on usability.

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theartlav Yesterday

I don't get it. Why would a node have to share hardware with e-commerce software or with checkout places? The nodes generate invoices and can send them whereever needed over secure channels, i.e. to a PoS terminal. The payment would then arrive from some random direction of the internet to the node, which can then inform whatever processing backend you have of a successful transaction. I don't see what kind of architecture are you talking about and what is it that is "hardwired".

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madppiper Yesterday

That's not how the implementations currently work. Basically with either LND or c-lightning you have to configure which IPs are allowed to access the Lightning nodes. LND in particular has some problems - they have a mechanism called "Macaroons", which works like browser cookies. They are generated by the Lightning instance and they must be copied over and used by the application server (ie your ecommerce store) if it wants to connect to Lightning and create invoices. Like the article points out, there is also the certificate / key issue. Lightning uses grpc for external connections, which are encrypted by TLS. Each lightning node will create its own cert and key and these too must be copied over to the application servers. Simply put: the commerce application won't know how to connect to more than one lightning node. Atm, the setup is simply not meant for this kind of use.

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po00on Yesterday

What are you talking about ??? The macaroon file is essentially encoded text that's sent as part of the API request header to LND. So, when you configure your node endpoint details on your ecommerce platform, you simply include the macaroon file as an additional parameter. It's no more complex than providing the remote node Ip, port, wallet password etc. As far as 'configuring which ips are allowed to access the node', this simply isn't the case as far as LND default behaviour is concerned. In addition, TLS/forced SSL is optional, so the CA cert may or may not be used. You describe all of the above as 'issues' when in fact they are extremely beneficial security enhancing features.

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madppiper 17 hs ago

Thanks for the feedback, to give you a bit more background on how it all connects: Our software uses grpc ([https://api.lightning.community/](https://api.lightning.community/?python#unlockwallet)) to connect to Lightning. It essentially works as a client connecting to the lightning node (we use lightning-j for all that). Unfortunately, things like the macaroon is created on the lightning node side ( \~/.lnd/data/chain/bitcoin/\*/admin.macaroon), not the client side: >\[...\] lnd uses [macaroons](https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/issues/20) for authentication to the rpc server. lncli typically looks for an admin.macaroon file in the Lnd home directory [https://dev.lightning.community/tutorial/01-lncli/](https://dev.lightning.community/tutorial/01-lncli/) So if you want to use it in context of our application, you will have to copy the macaroon file over to the application server. You can also check [https://www.lightningj.org/](https://www.lightningj.org/) for infos on what lightning-j requires for synchronous or asynchrous connections. Lightning-J largely wraps the grpc protocol, however, so I am assuming it is required regardless of how Lightning-J treats it. On the topic of TLS/SSL: both will be required by lightningj regardless of whether or not you disable it. And even on the LND side, I haven't seen the option to disable SSL. There is an option for -no-macaroons, but then grpc won't work (this has been disabled at later lnd releases it seems). But if you can point me to the disabling ssl config option, I'm sure we can give it another try and update the article accordingly.  Unfortunately, neither one of the above fixes the issue described. It would help if no macaroons were required, but either way, you will still be limited in the way multiple applications will connect to multiple LND nodes.

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po00on 15 hs ago

Sorry but your points are nonsense. SSL TLS is optional. I'm making multiple curl requests to an lnd node with just the macaroon and no CA cert. So you can put that notion to bed right away. Secondly, you make out like macaroons are some kind of problem or imposition. If you have access to the node to install / configure it, then you have access to the macaroon file. If copying its contents to another location is a problem for you, you need to work on your skills as a developer, instead of trying to make out like its a flaw of the system. Only a bad workman blames his tools.....

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madppiper 14 hs ago

Yup, gotcha. Everybody on production systems starts copying files from one host to the next. That just yells "scalable setup".

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po00on 11 hs ago

Do you realise how rediculious you're being? For all those following allong, we're talking about a \~ 464 byte hex string here.... A typical macaroon payload down the wire looks like the following: `0201036C6E6402BB01030A10E9BCD9069AE9C3EA14379674C90621621201301A160A0761646472657373120472656164120577726974651A130A04696E666F120472656164120577726974651A170A08696E766F69636573120472656134120577726974651A16DDD76D657273616765164872656164120577526974651A170A086F6444636861696E120472656164120577726935451A160A076F3E636861696E432472656144120576726974654A140A05706565727312047243616412057772697465011006208D2CFB8BD1B52C51EF8499E6C0FF82F6419EFD3653B14D84F165DDA2C7306CD3`  You are honestly telling us that you can manage storing multiple ip addresses, multiple ports, multiple rpc usernames, rpc passwords, but storing the above hex encoded macaroon string along side these other details is an absolute deal breaker and as such LN does not scale?

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madppiper 11 hs ago

Doesn't matter one bit what the file contains. If it differs per lnd node, the content has to be transferred. Likewise, the application has to understand which macaroon to use for which system. Same goes for certificates and other things. It isn't about file size, it is about how much you can reuse the same info per system - ideally you'd want each to be rather stateless and just rely on simple config per application server, if you can't do that, all your talk is useless.

0

CatatonicMan Yesterday

Sounds like you need an LN interface program that handles a pool of LN clients.

1

theartlav Yesterday

I see. Thanks for explaining, i wasn't aware of such scaling issues. Personally i run a proxy-like program along with my node which connects to RPC locally and interacts with the external world by itself, but i have no idea how well that would work at non-trivial scale.

1

madppiper Yesterday

Yea, truth to be told, we had the impression that many Lightning users see it from your perspective. That works for as long as you don't have to rely on the mechanics for an actual store, but in our field we unfortunately have to cook up solutions for our clients. Glad that the example was helpful :)

0

RageTester Yesterday

!lntip 10

4

lntipbot redditor for 3 months Yesterday

Hi u/RageTester, thanks for tipping u/theartlav **10** satoshis! *** *[^(More info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/lntipbot/wiki/index) ^| [^(Balance)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=lntipbot&subject=balance&message=!balance) ^| [^(Deposit)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=lntipbot&subject=deposit&message=!deposit 10000) ^| [^(Withdraw)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=lntipbot&subject=withdraw&message=!withdraw put_invoice_here) ^| ^(Something wrong? Have a question?) [^(Send me a message)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=drmoore718)*

3

seizmo redditor for 5 days Yesterday

Like the rest of BTC charlie foxtrot, Lightning is a solution in search of a problem. Its mechanics are by and large as useless for the use case its was implemented for (micro transactions) as BTC.

0

po00on Yesterday

Automobile is solution in search of a problem, says man heavily invested in horse buggies.

2

rainano redditor for 3 months Yesterday

Lightning isn’t BTC specific. It works with any compatible cryptocurrency.

3

jaumenuez Yesterday

New account with just this comment. Worthless bcasher comment unless you proof otherwise.

7

CannedCaveman Yesterday

You forgot to put arguments with your statements.

7

AussieBitcoiner Yesterday

works fine. Set up a node and give it a go!

5

theartlav Yesterday

Seem to work beautifully for online microtransactions, however. Well enough that there is nothing even close as good as it is. What makes you think it's useless?

8

cantgetitforyou redditor for a day Yesterday

If you miss the most important point of having a payment system that does not rely on intermediaries and establishes consensus in a decentralized way, it can be seen as useless.

0

Phrygian1221 redditor for 3 weeks Yesterday

Right, but we can still use on chain transactions. Why does is have to be all or nothing?

2

ABitcoinAllBot Yesterday

Here is the link to the original comment thread. Or you can comment here to start a discussion. Author: madppiper

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amoanon 1 week ago

Your issue with Ledger was resolved? Your app is working now with them?

1

altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

No :( But my site (My EOS Wallet) has always worked with the current version of the Ledger app. You can find it here: https://www.altshiftdev.com

1

jadelixx 1 week ago

This discussion comes at a very unlucky moment and has signaled combined with the latest FUD for some investors to dump EOS. EOS is losing not only against USD but also ETH. And this is how markets work. We can not dictate a price, that is against economics and we can not help BP's with a dynamic inflation.

Monetization would be the better option. This will incentivise BP's to work together with projects that potentially work profitable or are already profitable.

The survey was done with good intentions but there are too less responds and this leads to misinterpretation. Also the survey invites the participants to specific answers.
How is it possible that the team sizes and costs are similar in every region of the world?

We should have a discussion how we can invite capital to the network and reach a higher price level at this moment. EOS has excellent fundamentals.

To guarantee for quality of the infrastructure we should use the Worker Proposal Fund more like a credit institution. BP's can apply for credit from the fund, but you will need to pay it back in good times and there should be tough conditions to not make it too attractive to ask for funds. It will take time to work this out though ... and most needs to be automated of course and created so that it is possible to automate.

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

>The survey was done with good intentions but there are too less responds and this leads to misinterpretation. Also the survey invites the participants to specific answers. There was 25 or so responses which I thought was pretty good... Since it requires effort and volunteering proprietary business information it's unrealistic to expert 100% participation rates but as for inviting participants to specific answers can you provide examples? >How is it possible that the team sizes and costs are similar in every region of the world? Since the geographic location wasn't a question I asked - oversight on my part - we can't know if team size scales by region. I'm sure costs do scale however, especially in regards to how much of the revenue is allocated to salaries. >This discussion comes at a very unlucky moment and has signaled combined with the latest FUD for some investors to dump EOS. Given the nature of the article and discussion I was worried I may be increasing the FUD and causing further drops but I also felt like this discussion needed to happen and the community needed to be aware of the realities the BPs are going through right now.

1

jadelixx 1 week ago

> There was 25 or so responses which I thought was pretty good... Since it requires effort and volunteering proprietary business information it's unrealistic to expert 100% participation rates but as for inviting participants to specific answers can you provide examples? "How does the price of EOS affect your BP Team?" Then you set specific price categories. As if you want the asked parties to answer in your favourite direction or meet your expectations. In general its a bad idea to ask people if they want easy money (dynamic inflation versus monetarization). > How is it possible that the team sizes and costs are similar in every region of the world? > > Since the geographic location wasn't a question I asked - oversight on my part - we can't know if team size scales by region. I'm sure costs do scale however, especially in regards to how much of the revenue is allocated to salaries. Working power costs in e.g. in Philipines differ a lot from costs in US. > This discussion comes at a very unlucky moment and has signaled combined with the latest FUD for some investors to dump EOS. > > Given the nature of the article and discussion I was worried I may be increasing the FUD and causing further drops but I also felt like this discussion needed to happen and the community needed to be aware of the realities the BPs are going through right now. Ok I think the damage has been done. However I think we have reached a level where things can only get better. But why do you want BP's the center of development? Wouldnt it be better if BP's focus for now on core functions? The cheaper the price gets the more easy it is for independent developers to enter the eco system without external help.

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

>"How does the price of EOS affect your BP Team?" Then you set specific price categories. As if you want the asked parties to answer in your favourite direction or meet your expectations. In general its a bad idea to ask people if they want easy money (dynamic inflation versus monetarization). How would you have phrased this to get similar data? I presented logical categories that a business might go through during tough times, a life-cycle if you will, such as: break-even, cutbacks, layoffs and bankruptcy. Asking them to report which category applied to them at varying levels leads you to believe "easy money"? >Since the geographic location wasn't a question I asked - oversight on my part - we can't know if team size scales by region. I'm sure costs do scale however, especially in regards to how much of the revenue is allocated to salaries. > >Working power costs in e.g. in Philipines differ a lot from costs in US. You then quoted me agreeing with you about geographic location being a factor in salaries then argue with me...? Not sure if trolling? >Ok I think the damage has been done. Leaning towards trolling now. >But why do you want BP's the center of development? I don't necessarily... but they are. >The cheaper the price gets the more easy it is for independent developers to enter the ecosystem without external help. I'm an independent developer myself. The cheaper the price gets the more worried people are the ecosystem is unstable, people don't see a coin with a value of $0.0001 and think "oh gee, that looks like a healthy community, better start investing my time and efforts developing for them". 

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jadelixx 1 week ago

Easy money would be a system where people dont need to think about being more productive instead get money for free whenever they are in trouble. Dynamic inflation goes in that direction in my opinion. Monetarization is much harder to archive. I think many BP's want to go that direction and explore ways of monetarization anyways. >The cheaper the price gets the more worried people are the ecosystem is unstable, people don't see a coin with a value of $0.0001 and think "oh gee, that looks like a healthy community, better start investing my time and efforts developing for them". That is one valid problem. I would support anything that helps confidence in the EOS ecosystem. So what do you say of instead having dynamic inflation, having a credit fund or monetary fund. Money taken from the fund in bad times have to be payed back in good times with an interest rate. Interest rates would go to REX to be payed to all token holders. In that way we have an incentive to hodl EOS and at the same time we have a tool to stabilise the system? Is there a specific telegram group where this is discussed?

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

I like that idea a lot and it could actually make use of the bloated and unused [WPF fund](https://altshiftdev.com/account/eosio.saving/). The difficulty would be in enforcing repayments. You could deduct from BP earnings until the money has been paid back but what is likely to happen from less scrupulous teams is exit scams. ie. A BP lent money unregisters and is never seen from again... >Is there a specific telegram group where this is discussed? I guess the EOS BP channel? Not sure. 

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Hornkild 1 week ago

We need B1 to bailout now.

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cideod Token Holder 1 week ago

wow! great article and feedback about BP's. its really tough right now I would encourage BP's to really consider the dynamic inflation approach to sustain their status. No one is lambo-ing now, and its time to make business decisions that are both long lasting and rewards those who have been contributing 24/7 since launch. The BP's we have are dedicated and should have the opportunities to stay involved.....I am quite certain the community will not let them down in their efforts.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

This is pure non-sense.

If BPs get paid more to break even, then they'll sell the extra EOS and lower the price. In the end, they'll get paid the same in $ as they get now, but the EOS price will be lower. If you keep readjusting the EOS price, the price will keep getting lower. Holders lose, BPs make no extra money, and the network dies.

BPs not making money will not be solved by increasing inflation. Stop this madness

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

>This is pure non-sense. My article? You seem to be assuming I've made a point here and that I'm trying to convince you of it. I don't believe I did that. I presented the results of a survey and two possible solutions to the current situation and asked the community to vote for their opinions.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

>My article? Yes, your dynamic inflation suggestion. Transfer more wealth from holders during tough times when everyone is at a loss, and take less money when everyone is well off. It's basically taxing holders high during recession to pay the BPs. But of course you don't phrase it like that, you phrase it like this: \>Dynamic inflation would — in theory and if done right — solve all of these issues \>almost 35% of them were too worried about losing their current votes to do anything about it, even while on the verge of bankruptcy. Poor BPs! They invested in projects that didn't pay off, and now holders should be taxed for this because clearly BPs showed competence? Getting further taxed once we're 90% down from ATH without making it clear to the community that their investments will most likely (according to all economic principles) go down, it's nonsense.

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

\> They invested in projects that didn't pay off, and now holders should be taxed for this because clearly BPs showed competence? I would agree with this if we viewed EOS BPs as traditional businesses but the community has had a political undertone from the start due to the nature of voting and it's shaped these teams into different something different. Most T1 teams have forgone normal profit-seeking monetization approaches of traditional businesses in favor of large-scale community projects presented to the community in hopes of ROI in votes. The pursuit of votes and inflationary rewards as a business model has motivated far more teams to create massive open-source projects for the community, those teams - which have arguable given the most back to token holders - are now the ones with the most risk since they weren't pursuing more economically stable channels and have to scramble to monetize. You've clearly framed this all in your head to support your arguments that EOS is a pure capitalist society but it's far more nuanced than that. Further, framing their community projects as "failed investments" and "clear lack of competence" isn't fooling anyone. EOS is a different beast and your ECON 101 class that you slept through in college combined with your aggressive dogmatic tone isn't convincing me you know what you're talking about or you thought this through.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

>You've clearly framed this all in your head to support your arguments that EOS is a pure capitalist society but it's far more nuanced than that. Clearly you've framed this all in your head to shift blame and rationalise a bail out, but it's actually pretty simple. BPs pursued votes because votes is what keeps them a top BP and 75% of their reward is based on votes. It's irresponsible to overpursue votes to a degree that leaves you bankrupt as soon as the market takes a turn. By attempting a bail-out, you're basically penalising all BPs that were reasonable and saved money instead of chasing votes beyond their financial condition. Those people may have had to give up on some votes in order to act rational, but now they're punished for their rationality, while irresponsible BPs are rewarded. All this bailout does is punishing holders and rational agents in favor of wasteful BPs no matter how you try to reframe this. \>your ECON 101 class that you slept through in college Okay then tell me how I'm wrong from an economic perspective.

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

> By attempting a bail-out You're the only one screaming about bailouts and framing this as a negative now that prices are low. You'll probably also be the guy screaming about BPs earning too much when prices rise again. > you're basically penalising all BPs that were reasonable and saved money instead of chasing votes beyond their financial condition. No, I'm not. In this theoretical scenario they would also receive more funds. > Okay then tell me how I'm wrong For one, you've decided it increases inflation. It doesn't, it just shifts some of it out of the WPF, inflation rates stay the same at 5%. Secondly, you've decided to label it a "bail-out" instead of considering dynamic inflation as a double-edged sword which also keeps BP revenues from sky-rocketing during times of high-token prices. Thirdly, you've decided the current 1% inflation value for BPs is a decree from the gods instead of an arbitrary number determined in a rush to launch the network and one without much consideration behind it. Originally, it was going to be a bidding system with values between 1%-5%. With prices consistently above $10, b1 decided - with a spectacular lack of foresight I might add - that prices can never go down from here and anything over 1% was far too lucrative. Care to run the math on how much BPs would earn with 1% inflation and $50, $100 or even higher token values? No, of course not... because you've got tunnel vision and are entrenched in your current position. Your goal isn't to be convinced, it's to convince others. You've made abundantly clear so this will be my last response.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

>You'll probably also be the guy screaming about BPs earning too much when prices rise again. Funny you say that cause I can dig up posts of mine from the bull run _defending_ BPs. Only I remember how many times I got into arguments with Ethereum scammers when Vitalik the scammer was calling out EOS for high inflation when Ethereum had 15% inflation last year. How about you keep your assumptions for yourself? >No, I'm not. In this theoretical scenario they would also receive more funds. You don't understand the argument--in this theoretical scenario those BPs already suffered because now they oversaved instead of chasing votes, making their prior actions economically inefficient. >For one, you've decided it increases inflation. It doesn't, it just shifts some of it out of the WPF, inflation rates stay the same at 5%. Wrong, it increases the circulating supply of money supply, which is money that enters the market. The locked up 4% is isolated from the market and cannot be sold to suppress price. >Secondly, you've decided to label it a "bail-out" instead of considering dynamic inflation as a double-edged sword which also keeps BP revenues from sky-rocketing during times of high-token prices. I decided to label it what it objectively is, while you're trying to hide behind euphemisms. >bailout: an act of giving financial assistance to a failing business or economy to save it from collapse. Your entire blog post is based exactly on this premise. >Thirdly, you've decided the current 1% inflation value for BPs is a decree from the gods instead of an arbitrary number determined in a rush to launch the network and one without much consideration behind it. Again, you don't understand basic concepts. It's not about whether it's 1% or 2% or 5%: it's about changing it from its original value. If the inflation had been 5% from the start, the prices would be much lower low simply because there would be more supply. BPs wouldn't have more money because the inflation was 5%, do you understand this? Demand doesn't increase cause you change the number. >Your goal isn't to be convinced, it's to convince others. You've made abundantly clear so this will be my last response. Oh I'd love to be convinced by someone who knows what they're talking about. I'd love to actually learn something from wasting my time reviewing your posts after you call me out for sleeping through economics 101 and then revealing you have no idea what you're talking about. I'd love to learn something from a blog that discusses the economics of this decision objectively and doesn't appeal to emotions misunderstanding basic concepts. Unfortunately, all I get is non-sequitur, false assumptions, logic leaps, pretense, appeal to emotions, manipulation, propaganda, and someone accusing me of intellectual dishonesty simply cause their poorly thought arguments didn't convince me.

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tkosamja 1 week ago

I simply don't trust those numbers. Money some BPs spend is insane. The purpose of BPs is to operate hardware infrastructure and not go into dapp investments and other nonsense. Most of them run basic cloud server which cost them only a fraction of what they make.

I work with cloud solutions on daily basis (as SW dev) and I always cringe when I see BPs complaining how low price will "damage" their operation.

Here is simple solution. Scale down you server(s) and hire only one guy to maintain operation, not 5 of them !!! With this you will survive even if EOS sinks below 50 cents.

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amoanon 1 week ago

I agree, having some sysadmin experience it's really hard to believe those numbers...

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BitcoinRootUser 1 week ago

BPs cannot really scale down their servers without it affecting the network. BP's pay a premium for their hardware for strong single core cpu performance, large amounts of ram and strong disk performance. If you're operating on virtual machines you could scale down on the number of cpu cores you are paying for, but you cant go with cheaper cpu options without affecting the cost of cpu on the network. This is why many have opted for bare metal to reduce cpu overhead. You cannot decrease the amount of ram as the producing nodes need enough cpu to match that available on the network and the api nodes require much more to store the full chain state. You cannot reduce disk performance without effecting various aspects of reliability and performance of said nodes. The one area I see BP's cutting costs is with redundancy as many run multiple pop's with identical infrastructure. Cutting costs there opens the network to greater risks of interruptions. As far as staffing Im sure many can scale down on their sys admin budgets but it's not a 9-5 job. Someone needs to be available at all times to respond to outages. Ideally you need at least 2 admin's on a schedule to ensure one is available at all times to respond within minutes, not hours

2

br0cket 1 week ago

Sample sets too small for Tier 3 and above. Wondering if BPs should be required to keep reserve funds for down cycles. EOS price could remain at these levels for 6 months or more

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

>Wondering if BPs should be required to keep reserve funds for down cycles It's called basic risk mitigation. And the punishment for being reckless is going bankrupt in said down cycle otherwise.

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

I agree. You can't force people to save money and if they don't they pay the price.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

Not unless they're bailed out by propagandists framing dynamic inflation as some sort of theoretical bulletproof while practically stealing money from holders.

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

Am I a propagandist in this scenario of yours?

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

As long as you only discuss the benefits of the solutions while conveniently leaving out the economic downsides for holders, yes.

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

The irony is you only look at the downsides.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

Someone has to balance things :) If everyone looked at the negatives, I'd happily argue for the other side. But as it is, all I see is BPs and friends pushing their agenda, so you overstate the upsides enough for me.

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GunnisonCap EOS42 - Block Producer 1 week ago

I believe that is all altShiftDev suggests - not increasing the 5% but redirecting more from the eosio.savings account (WP fund) at low prices and times of potential network stress.

I think we should all ask “what is the DPOS equivalent of the POW difficulty throttle back in these conditions?”

That was designed by Satoshi to keep the Bitcoin network functioning economically not at a loss in these conditions, and to address a systemic network risk.

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SonataSystems Secura vita, libertate et proprietate 1 week ago

Burn the 4% now, so they stop scheming 7x24 to raid that stash and blow another wad.

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GunnisonCap EOS42 - Block Producer 1 week ago

😂

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tkosamja 1 week ago

>“what is the DPOS equivalent of the POW difficulty throttle back in these conditions?” Scaling down VM servers - most of them run in Google or AWS clouds so it's easy. Hire one guy part time to check everything is working properly and that is it. With this you will not have more then 10-15k expenses.

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GunnisonCap EOS42 - Block Producer 1 week ago

Already long done where possible, let’s just feel for those who have invested so much capital into bare metal for the network and can’t do that. At least we can just delay our move. Many standbys have invested a fortune to provide capacity and redundancy to scale the network and add security.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

>I think we should all ask “what is the DPOS equivalent of the POW difficulty throttle back in these conditions?” If you understood what these concepts mean, then the answers would be obvious: the same way the miners lower the hash rate, BPs need to lower their computational and business cost during bear market.

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GunnisonCap EOS42 - Block Producer 1 week ago

Well since BPs don’t have the huge computational hashing power for DPOS, hence it is so much more scalable, the equivalent is cutting back on teams, app development - all “excess” investment in EOS. I would estimate 90%+ of all value add activities for the mainnet since launch have been by BPs investing rewards when they had excess. We will see if commercial businesses fill the void.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

\>I would estimate 90%+ of all value add activities for the mainnet since launch have been by BPs investing rewards when they had excess. Sounds like bad investments from bad businesses then. They overinvested in projects that did not pay off, and now they're out of money. Perhaps in the future they should be more careful playing the VC game in highly volatile markets? \>We will see if commercial businesses fill the void. Yeah, let's see if EOS VC $1B, Mythical Games, and private businesses can compete with what BPs created.

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GunnisonCap EOS42 - Block Producer 1 week ago

BPs are not VC’s and the value add work is almost exclusively building infrastructure to develop out EOS- the kind of thing VC’s won’t fund or touch. Try not to take pleasure in the misfortune of others, not a good look.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

VC is not a derogatory term; BPs fund small projects to achieve their goals. I'm not taking pleasure in the misfortune of others. I don't like it when others are reckless and forgo risk management, and then expect a bailout for their poor choices, especially when it will likely kill the network and everyone's investments for short term gain for corrupt BPs.

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GunnisonCap EOS42 - Block Producer 1 week ago

I didn’t say VC was a derogatory term. You appear to be suggesting BPs who have worked their asses off for 6mths reinvesting hard and trying to earn a long term place deserve to sink for their foolishness in going all in. They all get my respect. I’m fairly sure the community expected absolute max delivery - now it turns out no, we should have done nothing and pocketed the tokens as reserves. Nobody is asking for bailouts, I believe AltShiftDev is highlighting a potential systemic risk to the network - you clearly don’t agree with his suggestions.

1

stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

> deserve to sink for their foolishness in going all in. What do they deserve? A bailout? Why not print some tokens for holders because they lost money too? \> I’m fairly sure the community expected absolute max delivery - now it turns out no, we should have done nothing and pocketed the tokens as reserves. Yeah, surprise, surprise. A BP should actually be competent and take reasonable decisions that make sense long-term, and not just promise the world in an unsustainable fashion. Where are the contingency reports from BPs detailing how they'll survive if the market goes down? Or was this not a possibility. BPs operate businesses, and they should do so responsibly. \>Nobody is asking for bailouts That's exactly what an increase reward is: bailout 1. an act of giving financial assistance to a failing business or economy to save it from collapse.

1

GunnisonCap EOS42 - Block Producer 1 week ago

What’s the reason why Dan Larimer originally had a 1-5% sliding pay scale planned for BPs and in EOS originally until early May? He solely got concerned while EOS was in the $14-16 range about BPs earning excessive amounts and declared that “1% is plenty “. Self evidently he made a mistake and added a crude hard value that will lead to systemic risk on the downside and allow excessive pay on the upside. It is not going to cover basic server costs below a certain level now, if the network tops even a modest value, BPs will be earning far more than needed. A network that is so crudely configured it can’t add basic income stability to the nodes running it has been misconfigured in my view. This isn’t new, several BP candidates with a finance and economics background including myself produced cost models of BPs back in April highlighting this risk and were roundly ignored. I’ll just say “told ya so” now we’re here.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

If you or any BP candidates think that increasing inflation will increase your dollar pay, you obviously know nothing about finance or economics.

1

captaincryptoshow 1 week ago

The worker's proposal fund was always a questionable idea. They should take % from there and give it to BP's.

1

Gooslybear 1 week ago

Super interesting data, not sure what solution is best, but definitely starts a good discussion!

4

fcecin 1 week ago

The solution is pretty obvious and I have been repeating it since forever.

Block producer income should be set in USD by a referendum.

The chain needs an EOS/USD oracle to pay producers in EOS according to the current market rate.

Business revenue in shares is stupid. It's too risky. Sure, it would be great to get an 1% inflation on 1,000 EOS, but that's not fun for the system. The system would rather PAY the network in USD and get stable businesses to run it.

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tkosamja 1 week ago

>Block producer income should be set in USD by a referendum. So they would be rewarded the same no matter if the network value is going down or up ? Nice one ...

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fcecin 1 week ago

I will assume you're not being sarcastic, since a computing power provisioning contract ("cloud computing") is paid with USD literally everywhere in the world and it works.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

>Block producer income should be set in USD by a referendum. This is economically impossible. You can't sustain the same pay if the ecosystem is losing value. It means the more people sell, the more money you print, the less incentives exist to hold, the lower the EOS values go down, the more people sell, the more money you print... etc. You can't just discard basic economic principles because you're using a blockchain

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

That's basically the same idea as dynamic inflation I mentioned but with more specific details as to what to stabilize it with/to. One concern someone brought up on telegram about pegging it directly to USD, Gold or any one specific asset, is that they're all volatile, just to varying degrees. >That isn’t fair either.. let assume for example a major recession in one country vs the US. This would result in the exchange rate vs USD potentially changing substantially, and hence income. > >If adding stability of income is the goal then a basket/index of currencies seems the best option. [https://imgur.com/Z3e9Jt7](https://imgur.com/Z3e9Jt7) 

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fcecin 1 week ago

USD is sufficiently non-"volatile" for most actual businesses on the entire planet to not only make all their cost calculations but also settle them.

1

hjras 1 week ago

Fantastic article and research.

I think it's become apparent that once the referendum tool is out we as a community should debate certain changes:

What if BPCs are also somewhat rewarded based on some metric (for example, having been in the top 21 for x amount of time or y amount of blocks produced)?
I think Dynamic Inflation should be based off monetarist theory (inflation as a result of supply and velocity) rather than to try to keep bps and bpcs above water

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

>rather than to try to keep bps and bpcs above water Remember dynamic inflation is a double-edged sword, it may help keep them above water now but it also keeps them from floating into the atmosphere when token values rise. >I think it's become apparent that once the referendum tool is out we as a community should debate certain changes. I wonder if we should wait for this, with today's prices all Tiers are in the bankruptcy zone. I wonder if we CAN wait for this.. 

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

>. I wonder if we CAN wait for this.. Oh please. What will happen if BPs can no longer invest in yet another gambling dapp? It's bear market. All their investments have been unsuccessful, and none of the projects created ROI for the holders. Perhaps it's time to use the money more wisely rather than throwing around their rewards and counting on the fact that holders will pay for their bad investments by just increasing inflation.

1

altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

>none of the projects created ROI for the holders All Chintai does is provide ROI to token holders... That's literally its sole function.

1

stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

\+10% EOS/year while EOS drops 10% daily is negative ROI

1

StreetTripleRider 1 week ago

Np projects created any ROI for the holders? Chintai? You seem rather uninformed.

1

stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

You seem rather slow. How will a holder make ROI on Chintai if the return is 10% EOS per year and the EOSUSD is going down 10% day? Care to calculate that ROI for holders?

1

SonataSystems Secura vita, libertate et proprietate 1 week ago

Amen. Hunker down. Thin the herd. Just keep the lights on until things hopefully turn around.

2

GunnisonCap EOS42 - Block Producer 1 week ago

If these token prices or lower persist for long - and I expect the $2-4 to be the new norm range until next autumn - fairly rapidly the network will have to examine whether this represents a fundamental systemic risk. There are some unproven BP candidates claiming they are happy to earn indefinitely at a loss to "share the pain" with token holders. In my view that is an irresponsible attempt to mislead on the needs of the network to try and gain votes and profit from the situation. This is a multi-billion dollar network that needs real technical expertise of the likes LaoMao, Rio, Sweden, eosDAC, Greymass provide - to name but a few, the list goes on and on and on. To retain these experts, who are a huge asset to the community in full time jobs here, the community needs to consider whether change to add downside resilience is more beneficial than risking them gradually possibly leaving for other opportunities. We have already seen EOS Meso, SaltBlock and EOS Africa unreg. Now we have lost Steve Floyd from EOS Tribe due to financial realities and him having a young family to support. This is just the start, hopefully we will see BP's prove their resilience in the months ahead.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

>This is a multi-billion dollar network that needs real technical expertise No, what you need is economics expertise. Bitcoin had and continues to have plenty of technical experts because they did things right without resorting to half-baked ideas to somehow pay those experts.

0

GunnisonCap EOS42 - Block Producer 1 week ago

AltShiftDev has come up with a better baked analysis of potential issues and a solution to strengthen the network than anything else I have seen to date.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

The solution to pay you more money? I wonder why you like it so much!

1

StreetTripleRider 1 week ago

To be fair, he presented multiple solutions in the article and rather unbiasly. He may favor one over the other but I never felt like his opinion was jammed down my throat...

1

GunnisonCap EOS42 - Block Producer 1 week ago

This isn’t about my team, we have the technical expertise to adapt and commercialise. Many teams aren’t in that position.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

So your suggestion is to bail out those of lower expertise than you? If technical expertise is enough to adapt and commercialise, then, great, the bear market will filter out BPs of low technical expertise.

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GunnisonCap EOS42 - Block Producer 1 week ago

We have a full in house development team, we are not a typical BP. The majority of other BPs have smaller teams and add a lot of value with much more limited rewards. If you want them to be “filtered out” fair enough.

2

stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

Then it sounds like the other BPs overextended beyond their financial capabilities. Why should the token holders pay for this when they obviously didn't gain much from the BP investments as it never translated in ROI for them?

1

taipalag Token Holder 1 week ago

So the solution to the BPs’ problems are inflation and price fixing?

To me this is equivalent to bailing out inefficient BPs on the back of token holders.

I’m concerned that a lot of participants in the EOS ecosystem don’t seem to have a good eduction in economics and have quite socialist opinions.

There’s a nice book those guys could read, it’s “Economics in One Lesson” by Henry Hazlitt

5

blockchainant 1 week ago

I don’t follow. All blockchains including bitcoin and ethereum have inflation that adjusts with prices. The difficulty goes down in pow to react to the poor economic conditions. Why shouldn’t eos have the same? Do you just want exchanges to be BPs?

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taipalag Token Holder 1 week ago

In BTC, the difficulty adjustment algorithm hasn’t any influence on inflation, the mean production time of the blocks is 10 minutes with constant coin rewards each block, and a halvening each 4 years. What is proposed in the article and by some BPs it seems is the amount of coins rewarded fluctuating based on a fiat price fixed by committee. At least that’s how I understand it.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

\>The difficulty goes down in pow to react to the poor economic conditions. This is equivalent to BPs scaling down their computational/human resources, not to printing more money... Block reward remains the same.

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

>So the solution to the BPs’ problems are inflation and price fixing? I proposed two solutions, one being dynamic inflation, but I never mentioned price-fixing...? The other options is simply for BPs to monetize their existing services like dApps or b2b solutions. Some are also interested in using Airdrops/Airgrabs/ICOs to self-fund but the likelihood of that being successful varies quite a bit. EOSdac pulled it off but YMMV.

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taipalag Token Holder 1 week ago

If I understand your Medium article correctly, BP's would be paid more coins if the dollar value of a coin falls below a certain value and less coins if the dollar value of coins is above a certain threshold. This basically is price-fixing the BPs daily rewards in fiat. Maybe not exactly at a fixed price, but nevertheless in a certain "managed" range. As for your poll, I answered that I'd prefer *monetizing* :-)

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jimmymoreland 1 week ago

6 months in and already "too big to fail" policy suggestions coming up. How is this blockchain?

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einsturz 1 week ago

Good data. It’s clear BPs are struggling and dynamic pay makes sense (both in bear and bull markets).

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

It would definitely be a lot easier to convince BPs to vote for it now in a bear market than it would be when EOS prices are skyrocketing... I've heard some people with some pretty hardcore capitalist opinions on the matter though. i.e. "No bailouts, let them collapse and get new more resilient BPs in the higher ranks."

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

... do you actually think it is a "hardcore capitalist opinion" that you shouldn't print more money in a recession to create wealth? Or that people with no relevant qualifications should take ignorant decisions because "dynamic pay makes sense"? This bear market is not because BPs are underpaid--no matter how much you pay them, we'll still be in a bear market until crypto recovers. All you do if you raise inflation is decrease the EOS price to rebalance the market. And when the EOS price decreases, you know what you'll do? You'll dynamically match it again to increase the BP pay to offset the price decrease. And then again. There was one comment below saying it should be paid in USD. What happens when you take EOS to $1? And then to $0.5? You'll have 20% inflation eventually? Look at Bitcoin hashrate. It's going down because miners are selling and can't mine anymore. The security of the network suffers. Why don't they just increase the block reward and magically pay miners better to secure the network? Why doesn't Greece just print more money? Why don't all blockchains just create more money and get out bear market? I'm sure EOS will revolutionise centuries-old economic knowledge by increasing inflation and paying BPs more.

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

\> that you shouldn't print more money in a recession to create wealth \> You'll have 20% inflation eventually? I don't think your read the article. I didn't endorse either solution I presented but in the cast of dynamic inflation I only suggested we scale within the 5% fixed rate which already exists. Inflation is 5% hardcoded, whether you like it or not, 4% of that goes in the WPF and 1% to BPs. Dynamic inflation would just play around with those numbers within the 5% margins and would obviously require some serious research and analysis before any solutions are put into place. As I see it, the WPF is a waste, EOS could be 1-2% inflationary, all going to BPs and we would be better off. No one benefits from a locked system account with 18.5m EOS or an additional 4% inflation. 

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

>whether you like it or not, 4% of that goes in the WPF Actually if the voters don't like it, it doesn't go to any WPF at all. 

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blockchainant 1 week ago

The problem with letting good BPs fall out is that we’ll only be left with wealthy exchanges who have done zero to help eos ecology.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

This is yet another nonsense boogeyman. Who makes up those rumors? Exchanges are doing very badly as well. Volume is down significantly, and they have to scale down massively from the bull market. Exchanges are not magic institutions that just print money all the time and bathe in $$$$$

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

Exactly. Exchanges and those not fueling their revenue back into the economy through projects and community support.

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Soleone 1 week ago

Very nice article, hoping to see more of this sorts.

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

Thanks and I think there's a lot of opportunity for follow-up surveys - if anyone wants to take a shot at it - I think I'll take a break from that and go back to MEOW :). The discussion has been primarily happening on telegram but a few of the suggestions for a follow-up were to include the geographic location of BPs & average salary costs for their team to determine the costs to run a team in various countries. Another suggested including the value of how much a BP has put back into the community.

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StreetTripleRider 1 week ago

Too bad we can't choose which one's collapse... Vote buying, corruption and cypherglass... We either save them all or let them figure it out Darwin style. Seriously though, we should vote for dynamic inflation, the risk of the good ones dying or leaving EOS for something more profitable is too dangerous.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

>Too bad we can't choose which one's collapse Sure you can. Donate to the BPs you want to save. Get a smart contract to pool funds together from the community and pay BPs to do something that the community wants. Or what you actually mean is "too bad we can't create wealth out of thin air by printing money"? Yeah that sucks, but increasing block reward won't fix it. It's up to you if you want to learn this by collapsing the system while wasting efforts in a senseless avenue or by reading a book and actually working on meaningful things.

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