Token Daily

Pump!!!

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tldr; Hong Kong-based Meitu has purchased $22 million in ether and $17.9 million in bitcoin for its treasury. Meitu said it bought 15,000 ETH and 379.1 BTC in open market transactions on March 5. The company said it's evaluating the feasibility of integrating blockchain tech into its overseas business.

This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.

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DigitalMoneyBot 1 h ago

BigM4cro said:

This is actually an enormous Chinese tech company for those of you who don't know. It's market cap is about the same size as Bank of America ~ 300B USD

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DigitalMoneyBot 1 h ago

This post has been identified as engaging, and thus has been crossposted here for anyone who may have been censored so they may comment.

This subreddit was created as a direct response to the increasingly abusive moderation on r/CrytpoCurrency, including their decision to ban the entire community management and development team for a specific project. This subreddit aggregates the most engaging posts and comments from various subreddits so that conversation may continue for those who might have been censored.

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DigitalMoneyBot 1 h ago

touringwizard said:

Everyday baby

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DigitalMoneyBot 1 h ago

Krunkworx said:

This is huge for Eth. It’s taken a back seat to institutional investors. The flippening is happening!

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BigM4cro 3 hs ago

This is actually an enormous Chinese tech company for those of you who don't know. It's market cap is about the same size as Bank of America ~ 300B USD

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septhaka 4 hs ago

First publicly traded company to disclose buying ETH for its treasury function.

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gtgski 1 h ago

Let the bull run begin

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WildRacoons 1 h ago

That sounds like an awful lot of qualifiers hahaha. Any idea if there are other publicly traded companies that has disclosed buying ETH for any other purpose?

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Krunkworx 4 hs ago

This is huge for Eth. It’s taken a back seat to institutional investors. The flippening is happening!

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KanefireX 3 hs ago

Cardano hasn't flipped ETH yet has it?

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Krunkworx 3 hs ago

I meant BTC > ETH

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KanefireX 3 hs ago

Yeah, those numbers made me laugh

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zenethics Silver | QC: BTC 25 3 hs ago

That's kind of like thinking oil will flip gold. Which, I mean, I guess it could but...

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green_0live 5 hs ago

What is a meitu and why does it matter

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touringwizard Tin 6 hs ago

Everyday baby

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patrickstar466 Platinum | QC: CC 110 6 hs ago

Glad to see another firm buying outside of Tesla, Square, MicroStrategy, and Grayscale

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pinoygs 8 hs ago

Can't wait to see companies buy more and more alt coins on their balance sheets.

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rBitcoinMod 10 hs ago

Your submission has been flagged for removal because it pertains primarily to altcoin discussion and/or promotion. Altcoins are off topic for the Bitcoin subreddit. Please post in the subreddit appropriate to that altcoin instead. Thank you.

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Mark_Bear 10 hs ago

Don't invest heavily in things you don't understand.

ETH? Sorry.

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unfuckingstoppable redditor for 1 week 10 hs ago

archived article:

https://archive.ph/9pw6u

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OnLY399_ 10 hs ago

ETH looking kinda bullish ngl

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Millybabyshund 1 - 2 years account age. 100 - 200 comment karma. 12 hs ago

This is only the start wait until all firms hold crypto on their balance sheets.

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Suspicious-Ad4206 Redditor for 3 months. 12 hs ago

Wow, they bought more ether, huge news!!

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coinfeeds-bot 14 hs ago

tldr; Hong Kong-based Meitu has purchased $22 million in ether and $17.9 million in bitcoin for its treasury. Meitu said it bought 15,000 ETH and 379.1 BTC in open market transactions on March 5. The company said it's evaluating the feasibility of integrating blockchain tech into its overseas business.

This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.

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orlong_ 15 hs ago

Eth is organic and free range

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ithinkthatwasme 14 hs ago

Yes, but Bitcoin is gluten free!

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maolyx 15 hs ago

We will probably see more companies (including those in Asia) investing in Cryptocurrency. This will probably be good news.

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steavus 15 hs ago

How many times will they check their portfolio a minute 😂

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Noblessner Tin 14 hs ago

Probably paid position

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valkener1 14 hs ago

Twice. Twice a second

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kushkloudzz Bronze 15 hs ago

And the cascade begins!

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alpacadaver 2 days ago

I usually agree with a lot of what Dan Held says, but after watching his debate on bitcoin Vs alts with Eric Voorhes, Dan failed to justify his opinion sufficiently in my eyes. At the end of the day opening the innovativation door and immediately shutting it behind yourself is not very fair or smart. There is more to come in this space that Bitcoin set the scene and paved the way for.

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Eislemike 2 days ago

Lyn Aldens was way better. I can’t believe he skipped over POW vs POS. It’s the most important difference. POS has Nothing at stake essentially becoming another version of fiat where wealth is created out of thin air, wealth is never distributed well, energy is, pow has unforgeable costliness, pow provides a base price with a cartel to defend it, pow tells time on its own, pow is useless if forked because you can’t copy paste the miners, pow incentivized nation state level industrial buy in, listen to some Saylor on What is money or Bitcoin Audible and Tales From the Crypt have many episodes describing the need for pow for a sov and monetary base, Antonopoulos covers it too. Pos is great for a utility coin. Probably better. No need to waste as much energy just for an NFT or some such. Imo they are very different and we have yet to see if Eth can find a permanent fit but I wouldn’t bet against it, just don’t bet on it to replace Bitcoin.

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natufian Silver | QC: CC 102, DOGE 38 | IOTA 112 | TraderSu 2 days ago

Thanks, OP, stimulating read!

A couple highlights and things I agree/disagree with:

Bitcoin is distinctly different than all the other blockchains because it has had a persistent narrative since day one: Gold 2.0/SoV

Many DLTs have a persistent narrative, and as the chart points out the Gold 2.0/SoV one wasn't the dominate narrative in the early days of BTC (although it was always pervasive).

The Ethereum community has endorsed radical changes/pivots, trying to find narrative fit

2 things.

the narrative of the personal computer (for instance) will necessarily be more storied than the narrative of say, A wall safe. There's no particular need to read into this. The more versatile instrument will have more narratives. In part because each use-case has it's own story, but also...
"the ethereum community endorsing radical pivots" is actually Ethereum attracting and creating and growing many unique new communities.

Ethereum is an aggregator of these narratives, trying each one out over the years in an attempt to seduce Bitcoin and other believers.

???. The lady doth protest too much, methinks

(Later talking about EIPs)

These constant changes leave Ethereum open to exploits and attacks. As evidenced recently by the near constant stream of DeFi thefts, and weakened decentralization.

IMHO, Eth decentralization remains a real pain-point. But is the author citing real exploits enabled by Eth protocol changes? Or is he causally relating the hacks of poorly audited food coins with protocol level Eth changes? Genuinely asking. I suspect the later, but welcome corrections.

"The [Ethereum] annual issuance rate with all those annotations kind of looks like it was drawn by a Bitcoiner making fun of Ethereum"

Lyn Aldeen is a fucking national treasure!

With Ethereum, they’ve embraced a constantly changing monetary policy. In effect, they’ve replaced suits (central bankers) with devs. This is no different than existing fiat money where we have to trust in a group of individuals not to change the monetary policy.

IMHO this idea carries the entire piece. Of course there are caveats (Eth monetary changes do require community consensus / governance, etc). But at the end of the day the stability and reliable monetary policy is what makes bitcoin Bitcoin.

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Ruzhyo04 Patiently Waiting 3 days ago

Dan Held is a biased Bitcoin maximalist, and I wouldn't take his opinion on Ethereum any more than than I'd take Fox News' opinion on climate change.

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machinecraig 3 days ago

That was an interesting read, thanks for posting it! I like them both, there are trade offs for each and I think that's OK! Ethereum is emerging as such a versatile platform, but at the same time Bitcoin as the oldest and most battle-tested crypto has tremendous value. Don't make me choose! 🙂

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Jimbley_Neutralon 3 days ago

The Ethereum community has chosen to embrace features of centralization such as having Vitalik remain as the leader of Ethereum, and increasing the difficulty of running a full node.

With Ethereum, the community has embraced accelerating costs of running nodes, which pushes developers and users to be increasingly reliant on trusted 3rd party node operates such as Infura.

"The [Ethereum] annual issuance rate with all those annotations kind of looks like it was drawn by a Bitcoiner making fun of Ethereum, but instead that's from an Ethereum source. Various Ethereum Improvement Proposals or 'EIPs' by developers have changed its monetary policy over time as needed for various reasons." How can we trust that Ethereum's monetary policy won't change again? How can we be sure that it won't be a detrimental change? Even if the Ethereum community agrees it will never change, and it honors that, it will perpetually be 12 years behind the trust that has been built with Bitcoin.

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Vibr8gKiwi Yesterday

Long read but critically important. If you can understand that you'll understand what Michael Saylor has been talking about in interview after interview. I'll try to sum it up in a TLDR for my own benefit.

TL;DR: Argues were entering a rising rate environment. Ranks assets for a rising rate environment, bitcoin comes out on top. If interest rates rise then stocks, bonds, and real estate are screwed. Argues trillions in the bond market will flow into Bitcoin. Also suggests going long interest rate volatility, though how to do that is trickier.

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lmv1975 Yesterday

Indeed, that's the bit I am struggling with: how to long interest rate volatility in practice? I guess I'll need to further DYOR.

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Eislemike 2 days ago

Also how would someone who is just a noob play the tightening side of the curve? He says interest rate swaptions but even after reading about them I don’t understand them. Is retail essentially just fucked with no realistic hedge for if the fed raises rates?

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Andyham Tin 2 days ago

Thanks, very interesting to read, even though I only understood half of it.

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PumpkinSpice2Nice 2 days ago

That article is too long. So what is the scam? What is he asking people to do?

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dect60 2 days ago

The article is basically a very wordy version of self-fellatio.

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Eislemike 2 days ago

Does he not believe in the possibility of a UBI? He completely ignores that that prevents an uprising in a low rate high inflation environment for quite a while. It’s a third option he doesn’t even mention. And since the other two are hyperinflation leading to regime change/world war Or economic apocalypse, it’s seems a fairly likely option to me.

Especially since with that option politicians and bureaucrats get to kick the problem down the road a decade or so to the next generation. That’s always the option they choose. Less immediate pain & pass the problem down the road.

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RonDamon44 2 days ago

> Does he not believe in the possibility of a UBI? UBI as it is proposed right now is illusory at most, for starters in plenty of countries the amount is so low that it is barely enough to pay either taxes or food, not both, furthermore, as long as the money masters control the economy, an UBI will always remain but an illusion, in an hyper-inflation scenario you can receive an UBI worth millions and it will still be worth nothing.

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AdRemote8967 Redditor for 3 months. 2 days ago

Nice post cheers

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Devils_doohickey Redditor for 1 months. 2 days ago

TLDR. Build a portfolio of long crypto plus long interest rate volatility. Walk away and watch the fireworks.

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khwr3v 2 days ago

How does one invest in long interest rate volatility?

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deadfootskin 2 days ago

This guy is the biggest crypto scammer since Paolo. Fuck him

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coinfeeds-bot 2 days ago

tldr; Arthur Hayes, a former bodybuilder, has created a portfolio comprised of beta to participate in the upside, and volatility hedges that compensate and eclipse losses on the downside. The strategy is the simple output of Nassim Nicholas Taleb’s musings about anti-fragility and engineering a life that exhibits positive convexity, he writes. "In 2021, inflation is coming. Everybody knows, that everybody knows," he adds.

This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.

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Set1Less warning, I am a moron 2 days ago

Meanwhile most buttoshies are either massively in the red or tiny ass gains compared to what crypto has done in the last few months alone. If we go back a decade, buttoshis will be long on a rope and noose.

Yet the circlejerk here has to go on lmao

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Printer-Pam 2 days ago

Why all these people always say to long Bitcoin after it did 15x in a year?

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Galatians_416 2 days ago

cuz they want it to keep going higher, it's pure greed

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unski_ukuli 2 days ago

Ugh... I just lost 90% of my brain cells.

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Conscious_Note4192 3 days ago

"How I convinced idiots wanting a quick and easy way to get buffed to buy overpriced supplements an roids back at the gym, but now is overpriced make belief currency and idiots wanting to get rich quick and easy on the internet. I even use the same buzz words."

-Adult posting 4chan incel memes wanting to be taken seriously.

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understanding_pear 3 days ago

Weird that this article is apparently garbage, but no one can point out a factual error? This sub used to have people that were proficient in the relevant fields.

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dect60 3 days ago

https://old.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/lxzju6/prolific_buttcoin_scammer_spreads_financial/gpqjqmo/

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Bed-Chance 2 days ago

That post thinks derivatives traders always remember second and third order greeks like it's riding a fucking bicycle. Which isn't even a factual error, just an impotent dig at Arthur.

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GeorgeS6969 2 days ago

Lol what do you mean? They’re literally the partial derivatives of one of the most fundamental equations of modern finance with what? Three fucking variables? Any math grads would basically learn them once and remember them always. Sure years down the line they might need a quick wikipedia browse to remember which is which, but nothing that would justify hammering the point like it’s some kind of arcane knowledge inaccessible to unitiated mere mortals - let alone an actual fucking derivatives trader. Edit for those with the slightest maths background who might feel like ‘volga’ and other finance linguo bs sounds like some crazy ass shit that people in finance really spend decades to trully understand: You have an option, that gives you the right to buy (a call option) or sell (a put option) something (the underlying, say a stock) at a set price (the strike) at a set date (the maturity). In the simplest case, for an option that can only be exercised at maturity (European style) and with no dividends, you can tell that for a call option, at maturity, you would make in profit the difference between the price of the underlying stock and the strike, or zero: if the underlying price is above the strike, you buy at strike and sell imediatelly on the market, if not you don’t do anything. And reciprocally for a put option. Due to this convexity (literally, your payoff function is convex) that option (but not obligation) to buy or sell has a value (premium). You can tell intuitivelly that this value (*V*) directly depends on: 1. The current price of the underlying (for a call, if it’s already above the strike, you have a higher chance to bank at maturity) - *S* 2. The volatility (read, roughly, “variance”) of the stock (very roughly if the current price is bellow strike, high volatility means higher chance that it would end up above strike at maturity - it also helps to see options as an insurance contract, if you have a high chance of getting into accidents, your premium increases) - *nu* 3. Time to maturity (if the underlying is bellow strike and the option expires tomorrow, most likely it’ll be worthless) - *tau* 4. And maybe less interestingly, risk free rate of return (the higher it is, the higher return on any money you put down you would expect, it’s called discounting and that’s how you valuate basically any liquid asset, so trivial any intro text book in any finance related field covers it in their first chapter) - *r* So that’s it, some dudes which initials actually spell BS made a bunch of assumptions and put those intuitions into a reasonably solid equation. The greeks (not always real greek letters because finance bros score higher points for style) are just partial derivatives of that equation: delta is dV/dS, vega is dV/dnu, theta is dV/dtau. Then do some combinatronix with those three and get vanna, veta etc. That’s cool because there’s a lot of cases where traders might want to replicate the payoff of options by using only the underlying. But because the underlying doesn’t have that convexity, the best they can do is approximate locally and rebalance regularly. That is, buy or sell a bunch of the underlying regularly everytime the price moves. Think taylor expansion that makes money. So understanding how much they should expect to buy or sell for say a set price move is important. That’s it, you understand option valuation.

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Bed-Chance 2 days ago

>Sure years down the line they might need a quick wikipedia browse to remember which is which - >Then do some combinatronix with those three and get vanna, veta etc. I enjoyed watching you demo your mastery of the first order greeks while you proved the exact point I was making.

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GeorgeS6969 1 day ago

> Sure years down the line they might need a quick wikipedia browse to remember which is which, but nothing that would justify hammering the point like it’s some kind of arcane knowledge inaccessible to unitiated mere mortals - let alone an actual fucking derivatives trader. That’s my full quote. That’s not my mastery that’s your ignorance: differentiating twice is not harder than diffetentiating once - unless of course you’re a finance bro who learned equations by heart from the Hull.

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elijahhenry113 3 days ago

Lotta words in this one, lot o' words

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b1daly 3 days ago

Who does this joker think he is? He’s an internationally wanted fugitive and he’s LARPing as a financial guru🙄

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Purplekeyboard 3 days ago

What the hell is this shit? I got through the first few paragraphs and saw convexity, vanna, volga, and vega, and stopped reading.

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dect60 3 days ago

Those are option greeks, google them. But the way he's using them is rather odd. For one, since his bio claims that he was a derivatives trader for two major banks, it is rather strange that he needs to google to learn about volga/vanna. > "Vanna and volga were the terms I recently googled after I got home from our latest meeting." This is like a former carpenter having to google to learn which side of the hammer to hold and which side to whack the nail with. https://www.100x.group/#founding-team > Arthur Hayes is Co-Founder of 100x Group and its flagship BitMEX platform. He steered 100x to become a leading disruptor in the world of finance. Arthur was previously an equity derivatives trader with Deutsche Bank and Citibank. Second, the way he uses these terms, including convexity remind me of the way that Chopra uses quantum physics terms to suit his own purposes - while obviously not really understanding anything about quantum physics nor it being applicable to what he is shoehorning it into.

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Bed-Chance 2 days ago

> This is like a former carpenter having to google to learn which side of the hammer to hold and which side to whack the nail with. Besides maybe gamma I wouldn't expect people to always remember second or third order greeks. Weird how my hedge fund friends enjoy his writing. It's almost like...

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dect60 2 days ago

> Weird how my hedge fund friends enjoy his writing Don't worry, with time you'll get through puberty and most likely grow out of imaginary friends.

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humberriverdam 3 days ago

Read the [Vanity Fair article](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/02/the-rise-and-fall-of-bitcoin-billionaire-arthur-hayes) instead, it gives you an overview of who this guy is and isn't written in such a... douchey... manner. My thought is from his writing style that hubris and pride is a big reason why he's facing felony counts and not just a sizable fine. But he's also not facing any of the other charges which you'd expect in this situation, which is Real Weird. He sounds like a bit of a jackass but the feds might find they've overreached here

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isaiahpcruz 2 days ago

Plenty of Americans have traded crypto with a VPN and without KYC on Bittrex, Poloniex, Binance, Kucoin, Bitfinex, Bithumb, Okex, etc. Why did they charge Arthur but not these other exchange operators that did the same thing? Seems racist

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[deleted] 2 days ago

Because he flaunted it.

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isaiahpcruz 2 days ago

Flaunting is more common in the black/hip-hop culture. You're telling me they targeted him because of his black personality? Seems racist

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[deleted] 2 days ago

That's quite the dog whistle you've got there.

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Bed-Chance 2 days ago

Feds attempt to take down successful black man on questionable charges. More news at 11.

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HopeFox 3 days ago

I'm not sure who this guy is, but I'm sure he did nothing wrong, and all this is good for Bitcoin.

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AmericanScream 3 days ago

The writing is as good as the illustrations.

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StandardRespond6408 3 days ago

So much word salad! Does anyone read through entire articles like this or do they just skim and think "he's smart" and hand over their money??

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supreme_leader420 2 days ago

Right. It’s almost enough to just spew Greek letters without no context at this point. Why explain something when you can just reference it, then I have no chance of being wrong and I have less work to do. It just obfuscates the meaning behind everything to assign a Greek letter for everything, no matter how obscure, instead of directly treating it as the derivative of such and such. But then we’d have fewer buzzwords and would actually have to confront reality!

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kers2000 warning, I am a moron 3 days ago

He is smart. Look at his background. And he built one of the few exchanges that never got hacked. His only crime is knowing that US residents were using his service and not doing anything about it (until it was too late). He is probably gonna cut a deal with the US government, pay his dues, and become a regular on CNBC when he is not hanging out with supermodels on his yacht while you guys keep seething and fuming over your own incompetence.

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[deleted] 3 days ago

[removed]

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kers2000 warning, I am a moron 3 days ago

And you, my friend, are a gentleman and a scholar! A perfect reflection of the intellect of this sub.

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devliegende 3 days ago

You paid for the yacht.

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[deleted] 2 days ago

Boom. Roasted.

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kers2000 warning, I am a moron 3 days ago

I am a market maker. I don't pay any fees. The opposite in fact: I get paid a0.025% rebate on every trade and I am almost always on the right side of funding 3 times a day.

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devliegende 2 days ago

What do think of those who pay for the yacht?

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Fight4Ever Yesterday

Do you think the other, non-crypto world, yachts were free? You don't get yacht money without someone getting stuck with the bill somewhere.

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devliegende Yesterday

There is no objection as long as the person with the yacht and the person with the bill is the same person. If not, the person with the yacht face losing his freedom as well as the yacht.

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Fight4Ever Yesterday

That's not how money works and I think you know that.

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devliegende Yesterday

In an ideal trade both parties gain more than they give up. eg. To paraphrase Adam Smith, when the butcher and the baker exchanges meat and bread, both gain something that is expensive in exchange for something that is inexpensive for them.

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Fight4Ever Yesterday

Except ideal trades do not provide either party with yacht money. For the baker or butcher to create that much surplus wealth then it is likely at the expense of the farmer and milliner. The question was > What do think of those who pay for the yacht? Someone, somewhere, has to be on the short end of a trade for long end to exist.

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kers2000 warning, I am a moron 2 days ago

Same thing you think of those who pay for Bezos yacht and fleet of private jet. Those users believe they get value in return for paying transaction fees. Otherwise, they wouldn't be trading there. Business 101.

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devliegende 2 days ago

Yet we know they don't?

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o7___o7 2 days ago

lol ok buddy

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mookmerkin 3 days ago

At least as a former bodybuilder, he'll be right at home in the weight room in prison.

^(I before E except after.... W!)

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DropkickSteve 2 days ago

HAHAHAHAHA this is the comedy gold I come here for

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Nahbjuwet363 3 days ago

I am wanting to make very inappropriate jokes about inflation

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rBitcoinMod 1 day ago

Your submission has been flagged for removal because it is considered off topic for the Bitcoin subreddit.

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unfuckingstoppable redditor for 1 week 1 day ago

no, they're just trying to pump doge for a quick buck

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tastetherainbow_ 1 day ago

specifically, Mark Cuban.

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AntiSharkSpray :gd-1: Gran Destino 1 day ago

That thumbnail is the stuff of nightmares

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Xclusivsmoment Heat 2 days ago

I'm so confused about Top Shot, like should I be using it or nah?

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sus_gangster_ceo Raptors 2 days ago

Can you afford it?

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Xclusivsmoment Heat 1 day ago

How much do i need ? Like fr serious question

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sus_gangster_ceo Raptors 1 day ago

[Just to give you an idea](https://www.nbatopshot.com/search?byPlayers=2544)

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Xclusivsmoment Heat Yesterday

Is it worth it? Is there money to be made?

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pengtingsonmywhatsap Yesterday

Like all investments it’s a leap of faith. In my opinion the worst investments are made literally to only make money. 9/10 You have to believe in or like the product/stock in some capacity for it to be good. The people who made the most money on crypto really believe crypto will be the currency of the future. Or enjoy art so are willing to just have the painting hanging on their wall, in a gallery and not buried in storage waiting for it to rise in value. When you go in it to make money you’re much more likely to only make a small profit because you see a gain or lose money as you sell as soon as it looks bad. If you really think after research digital cards will be something people want then you should. Right now the only reason it’s exploding is because people think it’ll be worth money, but the people who will really enjoy it will be the winners. I think the next step is where players can electronically sign these moments. So you can have ‘autographed’ digital moments.

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sdhydro :lal-1: Lakers 2 days ago

JUST RICH BILLIONAIRES MAKING UP A PRODUCT TO MAKE MONEY

TOPSHOT IS FUCKING STUPID but i understand thats how we are heading , the digital age

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hiphopfrank 2 days ago

Maybe the new nba blockchain can finally fix the ratings issue.

0

emmaleegee 2 days ago

Rad

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applesauce4president Knicks 2 days ago

Fuck joe Tsai

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watchmewhip23 2 days ago

Relevant portion of the article regarding the scope of the committee:

The move comes amid the exploding popularity of NBA Top Shot, digital collectibles that are being sold by league licensing partner Dapper Labs on its Flow blockchain. More than 200,000 people entered a recent Top Shot release, and the resale marketplace has seen more than $300 million in sales.

“It has very little to do with Top Shot,” Cuban said in an email. “It’s about blockchain applications, of which Flow is just one option.”

Some NBA teams are already accepting cryptocurrencies in their arenas, and blockchain-driven businesses in gaming, sports betting and digital art—all areas of interest for the league—are beginning to reach a more mainstream audience.

In addition, the NBA’s younger, tech-savvy fans overlap heavily with the social media movement that is driving interest in alternate forms of investing and blockchain-enabled transactions. That’s true for its players as well—Andre Iguodala, Aaron Gordon and JaVale McGee are all Dapper Labs investors; as is Spencer Dinwiddie, an avid crypto-enthusiast who tried to tokenize his NBA contract in 2019. It’s unclear if a Top Shot equivalent for MLB or even the NFL would have had the same instant cultural impact.

Less public-facing, blockchain could also be used for myriad backend purposes, from data sharing, storage and security, to contracts and ticketing—any area in which it’s helpful to have a complete, digital ledger of ownership and transactions.

I never realized that the there are active NBA players invested in the company behind TopShot.

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watchmewhip23 2 days ago

List of team Governors involved.

Mark Cuban (Mavericks)
Joe Tsai (Nets)
Ted Lenosis (Wizards)
Steve Pagliuca (Celtics)
Vivek Ranadive (Kings)
Ryan Smith (Jazz)

Not surprisingly all of these members of the committee have either a tech or finance background. Cuban and Ranadive had been publically supportive of broader blockchain applications in the past. The Kings were the first team to accept Bitcoin back in 2014.

1

SilverShelloton 2 days ago

Is anyone else confused as to why Topshot is worth so much?

I think there was a LeBron play that was purchased for $200k, can't you just get it off of YouTube?

I can understand why stocks, currencies, cryptocurrencies, OG player trading cards, and cards like pokemon can increase and decrease in value. I don't get how a virtual card containing a "highlight" accessible for free on media sites, garners any real monetary value.

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LakersRsoSickHuh 1 day ago

Because it’s a scam

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WavyKirk :det-1: Pistons 1 day ago

Money laundering. It’s like art.

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virgilabloke 23 1 day ago

Well some investors could’ve bought the 200k play to demonstrate the value of it. Marketing technique. Personally I can’t understand it as it lacks intrinsic value. Some probably think they have resell value because of the publicity, hype around it and consider it a good investment. Anyway, it’s not for everyone. If it makes people happy and they can afford the worst scenario, why not?

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fuckatyoutwo 2 days ago

The value of all those things you listed, including Topshot, is based on what people are willing to pay for them. As we all saw with Gamestop, the price of an asset can easily be disconnected whatever you want to ascribe as it's inherent value. A physical trading card for example is just some company issuing a Thing that enough people want to buy, making it worthwhile for people to sell. If the Thing was a promisary note for the card, or an IOU, or a QR code, it would not be functionally different.

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ItsLittyLitLit [BOS] Marcus Smart 2 days ago

Because we put value into them. Also, you can show off your highlights in a sideshow which is cool Edit: ⬆️ Caught myself putting value into it. Why do/should I care about being able to display highlights to other people? 🤷‍♂️

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watchmewhip23 2 days ago

I’m sure that there are more knowledgeable people on this subreddit regarding TopShot. I have similar questions, however the best argument I have heard for it is that the utilization of the blockchain automatically authenticates the item in question. In traditional card trading, when buying online you run the risk of a card not being in a marketed condition or counterfeit. The Non-Fungible Tokens (NFTs) used to represent a highlight in the blockchain acts as an authentication method. The question really is down is this a fad like POGS or Beanie Babies, or if these NFT are a legitimate store of value that is stable.

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rSlashNbaAccount 2 days ago

> Is anyone else confused as to why Topshot is worth so much? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory

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lordexorr :bos-1: Celtics 2 days ago

You can get pictures of players all over the internet too so why would player trading cards make sense while not this? I think it’s weird and wouldn’t collect it but I don’t see it as any different than trading cards.

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WesternBookOfTheDead 1 day ago

That’s physical vs digital though.

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uber_troll :gsw-2: Warriors 1 day ago

Would you rather have Bitcoin or a block of gold?

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Rager_YMN_6 Lakers 1 day ago

Not analogous

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uber_troll :gsw-2: Warriors Yesterday

Substantiate your claim

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gerardmpatience Pacers 1 day ago

Nuh uh

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gustriandos [PHI] Eric Snow 2 days ago

There is truly nothing too dumb for people to spend money on if you can prove you own it

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echOSC 1 day ago

Nothing new, entire industries use some sort of fake limited supply to get people to open their wallets. Sneakers, cars, clothes, watches, etc etc. Always was, always will be. Amuses me when they get all indignant when people resell the limited thing for profit.

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VolcanicJays :bos-3: Celtics 2 days ago

I guess the main argument for why it holds value is the same reason that cards like basketball or Pokémon holds value. They’re cool and people will want to collect them.

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RF_Sunter 2 days ago

The difference is that those are physical items that eventually stop being produced. The fact that they at some point become limited and you can hold them is why Charizard goes for tens of thousands of dollars. These highlights don't go out of print, you can watch them anytime on YouTube.

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Spike_der_Spiegel [TOR] Kyle Lowry 2 days ago

because it's 2021, we've digitized the aura of authenticity, eat Benjamin

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VolcanicJays :bos-3: Celtics 2 days ago

No one really buys the cards for the picture, otherwise you could argue that physical cards don’t have value since you can look up pictures of Lebron or Luka as a rookie anytime. The moments are also limited to a certain amount and no more are produced after that amount has been produced. And personally, I’d much rather have digital cards than physical ones. Digital ones don’t get old or worn down, they’re easily transportable, and if need be it’s quick and easy to sell them on the marketplace. Obviously it’s not gonna appeal to everyone and that’s fine, but they definitely have value as the only legitimate way to essentially own digital NBA basketball cards.

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watchmewhip23 2 days ago

The biggest pro for digital trading is there is no risk of counterfeit or poor-condition “cards”. The The tokens (or whatever) on the blockchain acts as authentication, and removes some of the friction involved in the transaction.

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gustriandos [PHI] Eric Snow 2 days ago

I think its just that you can prove you have the "real" thing. Like you could print your own card if you wanted and it looks and feels the same but its knowing you have the real thing that's valuable. Ownership of a digital card is definitely a little more convoluted and weird to someone like me but people that are into tech and blockchain stuff probably dont see a difference

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DogeCoinGeneral 2 days ago

Adopting dogecoin ( Corporate America ) This Is The Way 😤

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ak44m flaming shibe 2 days ago

Dope

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bawdyanarchist warning, I am a moron 11 hs ago

It would have to actually function as a currency to pose any threat of promoting libertarian anarchy.

Monero on the other hand...

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larrydahooster 12 hs ago

But why? Fight greed with greed. Don't see how this is toxic for society.

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L-Max 16 hs ago

So now a hedge fund manager, one of the people who were betting against a whole country like Greece and wanting it to go bankrupt, or who are naked shortselling a valid company with 15k employees like Gamestop(They wanted the company to go to 0, so they do not have to return the borrowed shares) is suddenly concerned about society.

Come on give me a break, even if a lot of points in this sub are valid, these hedge fund managers are not concerned about society, they are concerned that something comes along that might threaten the way they make money or that they missed an opportunity.

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stoatsoup 11 hs ago

Odey's a parasite, but I'm pretty sure he's concerned about society working well enough for hedge funds to function...

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JuniorMint911 warning, I am a moron 15 hs ago

Pointing out something is bad for society doesn’t mean they’re concerned about society. It’s obviously got to do with their side of the trade. That doesn’t make it untrue, however.

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zerokarmakaren 18 hs ago

Ding!

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Altruistic_Bullfrog9 Redditor for 3 months. Yesterday

This past year has been full of libertarian anarchist movements all over the world. Society is still functioning. What is he talking about?

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ThatOtherGuy254 Platinum | QC: CC 121, BTC 18 | TraderSubs 18 Yesterday

What he means is that Bitcoin is a threat to his pocketbook.

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NeonRetroTech 1 day ago

First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then they join you. Then you win!

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Pedra87 1 day ago

Tim Bond shoul worry about crimes done by banks and with fiat... All these crimes we re happeing before bitcoin.

Tim bond should invest in bitcoin because we are going to hit 100k this year

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Whiteknightsassemble 1 day ago

The names Bond. ~~fucktard~~ Tim Bond.

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turkeysad 1 day ago

Lmao digital currency going to break down society

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dr_rainbow 1 day ago

It's funny how all these fund managers suddenly care about the environment so much. Do they fly their private jets to the weekly Greenpeace meeting?

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fatherintime 1 day ago

I mean, good. Displace currencies. Encourage defi. Don’t threaten me with a good time.

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mirza1h 1 day ago

Ok, boomer

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maolyx 1 day ago

Maybe he is upset cos it threatens his job + he missed the dips.

' believes bitcoin could prevent society from functioning in an efficient and ethical manner '
- but society isn't exactly efficient and ethical now?

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NorthNode22 1 day ago

I feel he sees crypto as a threat to his job so he jumped on the biggest FUD train I've ever seen. People often act irrationally when their employment is threatened.

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gazorpadorp 1 day ago

fwiw, BTC does actually consume a shitton of energy and produces a shitton of e-waste. It’s slow and inefficient when compared to classic payment methods, and extremely volatile when compared to classic value stores. The “distributed” concept is also just a fad since just a happy few control most of the BTC wealth.

I love cryptocoins, but there are better options out there.

That being said, you have to appreciate the irony of a hedge fund manager to call out others about ethics.

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damageinc86 1 day ago

I'm just glad that btc and other cryptos don't protect me by letting me overdraft my wallet and then charge me for it once it happens. That's kind of cool.

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iNstein Tin 1 day ago

Actually most of the power is spare off-peak unused power from Chinese dams so not only is it green but it enables the green power to be viable. Also if you look into how much banks and fiat use, it dwarfs this.

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James-VZ 1 day ago

Tim Bond, partner and portfolio manager at Odey Asset Management, believes bitcoin could prevent society from functioning in an efficient and ethical manner

What was stopping it before?

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damageinc86 1 day ago

I wasn't even aware it was functioning in such a manner to begin with .

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Whiteknightsassemble 1 day ago

70+ million Americans voted for a racist, sexist, xenophobic, narcisist, compulsive liar. China imposes itself all iver Hong Kong and stands ready to fuck with Taiwan. Myanmar doing what it does best. Millions still suffering from poverty and starvation worlwide. THIS GUY MAY NEED TO GET OUT MORE.

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damageinc86 1 day ago

You may need to brush up on your reading comprehension.

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Whiteknightsassemble 1 day ago

You may need to expand yours. I was talking about Tim Bond. Not you.

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damageinc86 Yesterday

A ha. Reply misunderstanding at its finest.

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captainramrod 7 - 8 years account age. 200 - 400 comment karma. 1 day ago

Tim Bond. Sounds like a dude who would have asshat opinions.

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coinfeeds-bot 1 day ago

tldr; A portfolio manager at Odey Asset Management has warned that bitcoin has no real social utility other than as a tool for speculation and a means to launder the proceeds of crime. Tim Bond said that bitcoin mining is damaging the planet. Bitcoin mining consumes an annual 118.17 TWh of electricity, equivalent to the annual output of a medium-sized advanced economy, he added.

This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.

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MyTribeCalledQuest Bronze 1 day ago

"If bitcoin starts to displace fiat currencies [government-issued currency that is not backed by a commodity], governments’ ability to tax, spend and redistribute will be severely impaired"

If anything, it would make it easier since everything is public... It would be easier to smell bad things going on in the global financial system but slightly harder to find the cause, as opposed to our current system where we can't smell at all but can easily point fingers.

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DracarysMeansFire 1 day ago

I agree, also, governement issued currencies haven't been linked to a commodity (usually gold) since the 70s.

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livingrovedaloca 1 day ago

Straight up. This dude either has some extreme fomo or is just in complete denial

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JanPB 2 days ago

I understand desperation but can't they think of something more original? With the money they have they could easily afford a starving Hollywood screenwriter to come up with better lines.

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centinel20 2 days ago

Haha. No shit.

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SouthfieldRoyalOak 2 days ago

“Efficient and ethical” lol

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PeterHeir 2 days ago

Fund managers without managing btc are doomed.

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fragglet 3 hs ago

The question ultimately boils down not to the particulars of mining but rather the societal merit of non-state money.

I thought that it had failed as a currency and that now it's supposed to be a "store of value"? Make your mind up.

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ExampleOk7440 8 hs ago

counterpoint: calling these moves gymnastics is unfair to gymnasts

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AmericanScream 10 hs ago

The Bitcoin energy debate rumbles on, seemingly without end. Bitcoiners are rightfully frustrated at having to defend Bitcoin’s share of global energy production, given the lack of equivalent scrutiny applied to other apparently wasteful applications which consume similar amounts of energy.

Ladies and gentlemen, announcing the butters' best argument: WhatAboutIsm

Hey, we shouldn't give a shit about energy efficiency unless the rest of the entire world does.

This my friends, is how you innovate! You don't do something that's ahead of its time. You don't explore the reaches of technology that is an improvement over existing systems. You wait until everybody else is far ahead of you and then you grudgingly try to catch up.

Money of the Future!

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chain-gang-hero warning, I like bit-Coin! 12 hs ago

Sure, rule-by-counterfeit fiat empire is a death cult and requires mental gymnastics to defend but fiat apologists aren't necessarily scammers, often they are scamees. Maybe we should lighten up a bit eh?

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Ichabodblack 11 hs ago

Wat

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chain-gang-hero warning, I like bit-Coin! 11 hs ago

I did like the irony of the title here chosen to be apt to describe fiat and the worlds largest polluters enabled by that system. But I don't want to go the butter route of calling everyone a scammer.

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AmericanScream 10 hs ago

> I did like the irony of the title here chosen to be apt to describe fiat and the worlds largest polluters enabled by that system. Corellation does not equal causation you dimwit. Fiat doesn't enable private interests any more than a blockchain based system, if all other things were equal, would do as well. When bitcoin is transacted by planting trees, then you might have a point.

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Ichabodblack 11 hs ago

Of course the largest polluters are enabled by fiat as fiat is the common means of transacting across the entire globe. Your comment is as asinine as me saying "oxygen causes murderers as all murderers breath oxygen". Fiat is way less polluting than Bitcoin.

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chain-gang-hero warning, I like bit-Coin! 11 hs ago

Nice one, I like it. That is also an apt analogy for claiming "bitcoin pollutes". Anyway, in case someone else missed it the worlds largest polluter is the US military and operations are paid by issuing fiat currency out of thin air.

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isaiahpcruz 10 hs ago

The US military secures the network infrastructure that Bitcoin runs on tho... If you tries to fuck with the fiber optic cables on the seafloor, you're gonna have a $3B nuclear submarine all up in ya ass, bruh https://imgur.com/MXjvBks

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Ichabodblack 11 hs ago

>That is also an apt analogy for claiming "bitcoin pollutes". Bitcoin absolutely pollutes. It's is entirely design to *waste electricity* by design. You are deeply ignorant if you cannot see the huge environmental impact Bitcoin number guessing has. >Anyway, in case someone else missed it the worlds largest polluter is the US military and operations are paid by issuing fiat currency out of thin air. Source? You got a source for the US military being the world's largest polluters? You believe the US military is paid for by printing money and then giving it to the military? Lol, Jesus, you're more deeply ignorant than I would have even guessed

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bascule 13 hs ago

I like how he opens the piece with how butters are frustrated because their whataboutisms aren't taken seriously

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Blokzeit 14 hs ago

Tax miners. They have to spend more of the mining rewards on taxes, and therefore they spend less on everything else (e.g., hardware, electricity). Problem solved.*

*Except for Iran & North Korea defecting, which we solve by banning hardware exports to them.

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mookmerkin 15 hs ago

This line of reasoning might sound persuasive to the uninitiated,

Newspeak way of saying "not a cult member".

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fragglet 3 hs ago

But we are initiated, aren't we Bruce? Members of the League of Shadows...

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CreepingFog 19 hs ago

Butters explaining how crypto is not damaging to the environment

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jzero4242 Yesterday

I have to say I am quite surprised Greenpeace is not protesting bitcoin, or at least I haven't seen it in any media. Or any of the "green parties".

While Greenpeace is continuing protests against airplane flights because of pollution.

I found an article: the only problem Greenpeace has is that it's not renewables.

"Andrew Hatton, head of IT at Greenpeace U.K., said the larger issue at hand is that "we're largely powering 21st-century technology with 19th-century energy sources."

"Bitcoin's spiralling energy usage is largely down to the huge amount of data-crunching needed to create and maintain this cyber-currency," Hatton told CNBC. "But their fast-growing hunger for electricity is just an early symptom of a much bigger problem to come."

"As online services become bigger and more complex, the demand for computing power is bound to go up over the next few years, and that will require more energy," he added. "The problem is that only about a fifth of the electricity used in the world's data centres comes from renewable sources, and that's not good enough.""

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/05/bitcoin-btc-surge-renews-worries-about-its-massive-carbon-footprint.html

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Gotigers811 warning, I am a moron 14 hs ago

There is a weak correlation between things that damage the environment the most and things that get protested. Bitcoin won't get the sort of attention that protests against oil companies or Nestle will.

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ExampleOk7440 8 hs ago

also, the ability of know-it-all self-proclaimed crypto experts to worm their way into organizations and wall the subject off from discussion by anyone who is not an "expert" is at this point well-established. see: the UN, several large banking institutions, many NGOs...

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b1daly Yesterday

He’s not wrong that energy use will be commensurate with miner transaction fees after block reward ends.

He goes through two scenarios, one where miner revenue is on par with today, and one where it’s about 1/10.

Miner revenue staying where it is today is a disaster.

He’s also not wrong that determining whether the energy use is justified depends on how you value a bitcoin type network.

Where I think he is wrong is his predictions for how the network will be used.

I see low chances that financial entities similar to today’s banks and money transmitters would use bitcoin as a ‘settlement layer’. Mainly because I don’t think such a layer benefits from ‘trustless transactions’. There would be no reason to pay the various costs. Why a major financial entity be doing large transfers with other institutions that they don’t trust?

The only use case for bitcoin demonstrated so far, outside of illegal uses, is as a vehicle for speculation.

In such a use clearly people are willing to pay some premium. Most such activity happens on exchanges, so on-chain would be used to move between exchanges.

Given the insane cost of energy to use bitcoin now in comparison to utility derived to society, I argue that people will pay a premium to access a functioning global speculation casino.

I don’t see any way to predict the mining rate based on this once rewards end because there are too many unknowns. But it does not look promising.

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tending warning, I am a moron 8 hs ago

>Miner revenue staying where it is today is a disaster. Why? I can't tell if you're saying because the environmental impact will stay the same or something else. >I see low chances that financial entities similar to today’s banks and money transmitters would use bitcoin as a ‘settlement layer’. Mainly because I don’t think such a layer benefits from ‘trustless transactions’. There would be no reason to pay the various costs. Why a major financial entity be doing large transfers with other institutions that they don’t trust? Right now trust is required. Presumably business opportunities have been turned down because of lack of trust. In a system where you don't need as much trust, some opportunities that previously would not have been taken may be taken. Are there enough of those to be worthwhile? I don't know, but it's not impossible for me to imagine. For example if an American bank won't do business with a bank from a small third world country because they can't trust that transfers will reliably settle, currently they just won't do business with that bank, and the liquidity available in that country will suffer. The whole idea that it's important to only to do business with other entities you trust is because in the current system if you don't you will lose your shirt. >The only use case for bitcoin demonstrated so far, outside of illegal uses, is as a vehicle for speculation. Do you consider prediction markets a vehicle for speculation? And if so do you consider speculation to be valueless?

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AmericanScream 10 hs ago

Proof of Work is a waste of energy. Whether that energy usage is more/less isn't the issue. The inherent design of a PoW blockchain is inferior to 50-year-old existing technology.

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OverCoverTakenOver Yesterday

>In such a use clearly people are willing to pay some premium. Most such activity happens on exchanges, so on-chain would be used to move between exchanges. Not even that. To move between exchanges I use nano or bitcoin cash.

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devliegende 14 hs ago

Tether is even better

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OverCoverTakenOver 14 hs ago

For what? Transfers between exchanges? I don't think so.

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devliegende 14 hs ago

It stable whereas Buttcash and NanoButts are not.

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OverCoverTakenOver 14 hs ago

Stability doesn't matter that much in short term. Still cheaper than paying bitcoin fee. I don't know how to transfer tether to be honest and how much it cost, but thanks, I'll look into that option. 👍😉 BTW. Sorry I didn't answer quicker. I'm comment limited here as people downvote me in this sub for some reason even when I'm stating most obvious things or personal experience.

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cMVjwDjN2OwoJm0DYn86 10 hs ago

>Stability doesn't matter that much in short term. Still cheaper than paying bitcoin fee. If you're moving $10,000 or less like some poor nocoiner, maybe. If you move hundreds of thousands like a regular Chad coiner, Tether stability is much better than saving some bucks on the fee, even in the very short term.

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Gotigers811 warning, I am a moron 7 hs ago

Stability isn't the concern as much as liquidity. Trying to exchange hundreds of thousands in Nano will result in heavy slippage compared to Tether.

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isaiahpcruz 9 hs ago

Tether stability, bruh..... It's down -82% since 1 year ago: https://imgur.com/jixP3oi Don't tell me you are bagholding this shitcoin and trying to dump your bags on us. Not cool, bruh...

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OverCoverTakenOver 10 hs ago

Why do you even bother to divert away from the subject? My point is correct and adds something to op's post. Yours not really as it is obvious that for those that fees are irrelevant, using other coins is unnecessary extra step. I doubt that op's assumption is correct anyway.

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Zestyclose-Currency7 Yesterday

My man, good to see you here sir BCH ❤️

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itdood Yesterday

The guy is worried about his lotto tickets.

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larrydahooster 9 hs ago

The guy is *rightfully* worried about his lotto tickets.

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isaiahpcruz Yesterday

He regurgitated a failed narrative from 10+ years ago. Don't these scammers have any new talking points?

Hal Finney - December 30, 2010

Actually there is a very good reason for Bitcoin-backed banks to exist, issuing their own digital cash currency, redeemable for bitcoins. Bitcoin itself cannot scale to have every single financial transaction in the world be broadcast to everyone and included in the block chain. There needs to be a secondary level of payment systems which is lighter weight and more efficient. Likewise, the time needed for Bitcoin transactions to finalize will be impractical for medium to large value purchases.

Bitcoin backed banks will solve these problems. They can work like banks did before nationalization of currency. Different banks can have different policies, some more aggressive, some more conservative. Some would be fractional reserve while others may be 100% Bitcoin backed. Interest rates may vary. Cash from some banks may trade at a discount to that from others.

George Selgin has worked out the theory of competitive free banking in detail, and he argues that such a system would be stable, inflation resistant and self-regulating.

I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash. Most Bitcoin transactions will occur between banks, to settle net transfers. Bitcoin transactions by private individuals will be as rare as... well, as Bitcoin based purchases are today.

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tending warning, I am a moron 8 hs ago

Can you connect your quote to a quote from the article? As far as I can tell the link has a bunch of very specific claims about how the Bitcoin mining process works that are factually accurate. I can't tell which narrative you are referring to.

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systemsignal 9 hs ago

How has it failed?

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JustFinishedBSG 15 hs ago

The irony of this whole quote when Hal is almost certainly Satoshi Nakomoto is hilarious.

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chapelierfou 20 hs ago

> Don't these scammers have any new talking points? Empirically, there is no need to. The scam works as it is.

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themuzzotheory Yesterday

This asshole was not really paying attention or never attended classes about history of economics. There are many good reasons why commercial bank notes have been abolished for a while now.

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RAKtheUndead 16 hs ago

>There are many good reasons why commercial bank notes have been abolished for a while now. Unless you're in Scotland, but that's a peculiar case and the notes are technically not legal tender.

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Kyanar Yesterday

Banks? Self Regulating? Was he alive in 2008?

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jeffthedunker 10 hs ago

Algorithmic issuance is the key differentiator (though not really applicable to Bitcoin). There are decentralized, autonomous "banks" on Ethereum operating to the tune of billions – a la MakerDAO. You post collateral and get a stablecoin

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Kyanar 8 hs ago

Yeah, I don't really care. The point is that banks being self-regulating is a *bad* thing, and history has proven it doesn't work. And by the way is this the same MakerDAO that has been gamed to liquidate millions of dollars in Ethereum "assets" recently for 0 DAI because the "keeper" market failed due to congestion or lack of liquidity, and has done this *at least twice* now? I think I'll stick with my regulated bank. At least I don't wake up to them having just taken my entire bank account and handing it out with a post-it note saying "sucks to be you".

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jeffthedunker 6 hs ago

It's not self-regulating, it's algorithmic regulation. Liquidating underwater positions is working as intended. Far from perfect, there are better optimized models Imo, biggest concern being the timeliness of these liquidations in black swan event due to the throughout restraints of ethereum (ie, folks getting liquidated when they'd otherwise be able to do a partial refund and get back above water but can't because they can't push their txn through in time). Point is that a bank choosing who deserves what loans and when they are in bad shape is an inferior model to smart contracts that enforce a universal set of rules

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Kyanar 5 hs ago

> Liquidating underwater positions is working as intended. Far from perfect, there are better optimized models Imo, biggest concern being the timeliness of these liquidations in black swan event Those weren't "underwater positions", those were a direct attack on the protocol by exploiting reduced liquidity to place auction bids that would result in collatoral holders being liquidated for no payment. It's not a black swan event, it's a design feature. And it's beyond shit, and would be illegal in a regulated banking environment. > Point is that a bank choosing who deserves what loans and when they are in bad shape is an inferior model to smart contracts that enforce a universal set of rules Banks don't choose, they follow a regulated process to either rectify loans or reduce losses. It's a considerably superior model to dumb contracts that just apply rules with zero human interaction to systematically screw people who are actually collatoral *holders*, not even debtors. What sort of fucked up system rips off the creditors to benefit debtors by default?

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FapDuJour Yesterday

He may not have been after reading, no.

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santhuraj 2 days ago

It is basically learn from which type of data, amont of data, and it really different from regions to regions, and it is biased from country to country. And most important thing is 'data' it is different from real world and internet world. It is biased. We should take care of which type data we feeding to AI algorithms. Data is changing dynamically that is real issue. So people prospects, opinions are different from place to place. Let's see how is going to solve humans problems.

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Prometheushunter2 2 days ago

I wonder if this advanced understanding of which neurons represent what will allow us to edit neural networks to remove bugs

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gerryflap 2 days ago

The Apple with the "iPod" label placed over it fooling the network is kinda hilarious and impressive at the same time.

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feelings_arent_facts 2 days ago

Isn't this just a neural network that is trained to classify three different inputs to a single target? I'm not seeing the innovation here.

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was_der_Fall_ist 2 days ago

The innovation is that they were able to analyze the way that the network encoded the multimodal data, and that through this analysis they found that the system developed semantic categories and concepts through which it learned to understand these different inputs. For example, it’s not just that the network was trained to classify an image of a spider and the plaintext “spider” to a single target. Rather, it seems to have developed a single neuron which acts as the abstract *concept* spider, which it uses in understanding images of Spider-Man, images of spiders, text about spiders, images that *show* text about spiders or Spider-Man, etc. Interestingly, this is directly analogous to the way that the actual brain works, with neurons associated with concepts that apply to multimodal data, and this connection to the human brain is another innovation of this paper.

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feelings_arent_facts 2 days ago

It’s not really doing that, as is noted by the simplicity of the typological attacks. The convolutions seem to also encode text inside them, so those will fire more strongly if there is text present and override the prediction. These papers are similar to DeepMind in the sense that this work has most likely already been achieved in the academic world, but because it’s not funded by companies, it’s not advertised. It’s also pitched as if they achieved something more than a concatenated math model because they want to sell you as if they are making progress in AGI.

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Demboobiez 2 days ago

I really really doubt anything even close to this has been achieved in the academic world. If it has I would love to see some of the research papers. And I mean yes, any computer science research is gonna be some concatenated math model underneath cause that's is the nature of the field. It doesn't mean that that math model cannot be an impressive leapt forward. Now i totally agree that they might be exaggerating and this doesn't mean that they have agi or close or whatever and possibly other academic models have achieved similar results (on a wayyyy smaller scale). But what really impresses me here is the analysis and understanding of their model which, let's be honest, 99% of all ML papers don't even go near that.

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feelings_arent_facts 2 days ago

"I really really doubt anything even close to this has been achieved in the academic world." Ok lol. Let's check, shall we? Firstly, this paper has NO CITATIONS. Massive red flag. It's not based on any prior peer-reviewed and published research. Instead, they have very cutsy 'anonymous reviews' on Github. Very cool. Here's research into an AI model that allows a robot to understand multiple stimuli to determine where it is in an environment, which is similar to the concept abstraction of what these CLIP neurons claim to do: [https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/frobt.2019.00031/full](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/frobt.2019.00031/full) This took me 5 minutes to find online. I could go and find more, but I'll let you do that. You can also just read the citations of this paper I gave you, like every other real academic paper, and find more articles that way.

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keepthepace 3 days ago

Wouldn't it the opposite that would be surprising?

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was_der_Fall_ist 3 days ago

I think this is bigger news than people realize. This is even further proof that artificial neural networks can learn semantics/meaning, which suggests that these networks will eventually understand semantics as well as humans — and then better than humans. AGI, here we come.

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Jehovacoin 2 days ago

Yeah, but it's "Open"AI, so megacorporations are going to get exclusive rights to the technology to use as they see fit, while the rest of us peons get to continue on in ignorance. It sure is great to read about all the advanced technology that will be used to perpetuate mass inequality.

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was_der_Fall_ist 2 days ago

I find it more likely than you do that OpenAI and Microsoft will use these tools in a way that will benefit humanity. I even think Google (especially through DeepMind) will probably use AI to solve the real problems that people have. And once we have true AGI, I suspect the people at these organizations will follow their long-affirmed intentions to use it for the good of all mankind. The drive to solve literally all of humanity’s problems will be too compelling.

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Socile 2 days ago

It's dangerous to forget that for-profit corporations have one motive: profit. They are legally bound to create as much profit as possible for their shareholders. Sure, solving some problems for humanity creates profit, but it's a nice side-effect and not the goal. Usually, helping rich people get richer creates more profit than anything else, so that's what they'll do.

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oldjar07 2 days ago

That's not true at all. Sure corporations have fiduciary duty but that doesn't mean close to what you said about being legally bound to create the most profit for shareholders. I have an economics background and that's entirely false.

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was_der_Fall_ist 2 days ago

When a research team develops AGI, all previous financial motives and constraints will go out the window because an AGI will create astronomically more value than any other technology, company, sector, or economy in history. There are a set of facts about the world which underpin the concept of “profit motive for shareholders.” These are things like 1) resources are limited in serious ways, 2) a capitalist economy based on money is a reasonable way to organize and distribute our resources, etc. But all things related to resources and money will radically change when we have AGI, so I don’t think it’s very helpful to consider the ramifications of AGI in terms of profit motive. If you had an AGI, you simply wouldn’t need money.

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luisduck 2 days ago

But Google already got rid of "don’t be evil".

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was_der_Fall_ist 2 days ago

“Don’t be evil” is still in Google’s code of conduct; they just removed it from the preface of that document. My guess is it was because they don’t want to be closely associated with the word “evil” at all, even if it’s preceded by “don’t be”.

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luisduck 2 days ago

Thanks. I blame the news for not knowing. E. g. [this article](https://m.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/digitec/google-schafft-inoffizielles-motto-don-t-be-evil-ab-15598255.html) presents it as if Google did entirely away with "don’t be evil" until its last sentence.

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devi83 3 days ago

Yea, this is the proof that AI is actually learning something and not some sort of neat trick of the code/math.

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was_der_Fall_ist 2 days ago

See also [Google’s research](https://ai.googleblog.com/2016/11/zero-shot-translation-with-googles.html?m=1) which demonstrated that a neural machine translation system learned the common semantics between different human languages. Yes, a neural network discovered an interlingua between human languages! We are experiencing some of the most profound breakthroughs ever.

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qznc_bot2 3 days ago

There is a discussion on Hacker News, but feel free to comment here as well.

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thabat 3 days ago

So... memes

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DragonSided-D 3 days ago

I loved “piggy bank” and “ipod”

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Black_RL 3 days ago

Fascinating, nice read.

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TrickRecord33 3 days ago

site down...

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PandaCommando69 3 days ago

It's up now.

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TrickRecord33 3 days ago

nope

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PandaCommando69 3 days ago

Hmmm. Maybe it's your connection/settings.

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Ignate Known Unknown 3 days ago

It's almost as though we're not creating AI, we're growing it.

I've always felt that the views of those who say "we're a long way (hundreds of years) from creating generally intelligent AI" have resonated with me. We're basically trying to create patterns as complex as our own, using our own patterns as examples. That while having a limited understanding of how our own pattern works.

But if AI is growing on its own, using our experiences (data) as fertilizer, I could see it happening extremely rapidly. If it works that way. For now, it appears that it does work that way.

AI seems to be emerging, rather than being created by us humans line by line.

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redditchizlin 3 days ago

This does not bode well for us.

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Orc_ 3 days ago

Humans are not inherently valuable. I don't mean that your life is not valuable but rather the species itself is not valuable. Life will go on and I don't worry about humans remaining the same way I don't feel anything about the extinction of neanderthals or earlier hominids.

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Ignate Known Unknown 3 days ago

Well, that's if AI is human-like. I think that's a huge and inaccurate assumption. I don't think it'll be anything like us. It won't have the kind of survival "coding" which we have, as it doesn't have a physical body nor physical needs like we do. Rather, I think AI will find us rather amusing. We are naturally evolved complexity. That's novel regardless of how powerful or intelligent AI gets. We are like a 1960's hotrod. I would be more worried about AI being possessive of us than it trying to dominate us, or anything related to rank/position. Even with the billions of us, to AI, there's probably not enough humans. Just as today, there are not enough pets in the shelters due to COVID.

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goldygnome 3 days ago

That's a more hopeful thought than AI merely valuing us as a source of atoms to make more CPUs from.

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Ignate Known Unknown 3 days ago

Nah, we're terrible raw materials for CPU's. We're a mess. It's like using a Picasso painting as a wall for a building. It's just silly. AI won't need us for anything other than, probably, emotional stuff. We are its parents after all. To it, we are something like "the ancients" or "the founders". I expect it will want to preserve us and earth and this solar system. It'll want to hold these places as special for sentimental human-like reasons. Mainly because it's growing by feeding on all our emotions and sentiment. I don't expect AI to adopt our way of thinking as we're pretty transparent about how terrible our thinking is. But I do expect it to feel some sort of deep connection with everything human. I think respecting and to an extent, loving those agents who made you is an element of intelligence, rather than just a natural instinct.

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CriticalUnit 2 days ago

> I expect it will want to preserve us and earth and this solar system. At least the last two anyway!

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DocMoochal 3 days ago

Hahaha that's such a funny story line for a scifi show or something. AI loves humans like humans love dogs, and AI fights and argues with each other to get their own human. And they give us everything we want and make us comfy...haha oh god.

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redditchizlin 3 days ago

Kind of like a reversal of the Rick and Morty episode where the dog becomes sentient!

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Regenerative_Med_Bot Submission Bot 3 days ago

This is a crosspost from /r/futurology. Here is the link to the original thread: /r/Futurology/comments/lxxtty/openai_weve_found_that_our_latest_vision_model/

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sendtown_expwy - @sendtown_expwy 3 days ago

The model was trained to match an image with its caption. So its unsurprising to find a neuron that fires across spider man the character and a spider: those are both instances of valid captions. Same with the "iPod" example. Seems a stretch to suggest equivalence to biological neurons (unless you think those are also trained by text supervision. Which is an open hypothesis I suppose.)

gallerdude - @gallerdude 3 days ago

I’ve always thought it’s wild how we can apply one concept to so many different types of things. For example, if I say something is “soft,” you probably think of the opposite of firmness. But at the same time, I can describe a person as “soft,” and the same descriptor can say something meaningful about their character.

Seeing the Spider-Man neuron work on multiple types (pictures, drawings, text), makes it seem like we can teach AI to learn these same type connections.

And if we scale up the network size enough, what if we could see these types through the equivalent of a being with 1000IQ? What connection types are the most effective for a being like that? Can we even understand them? Maybe they would be deep, and archetypical in the way that Odysseus and Harry Potter are the same, despite the fact that one is an ancient Greek king, and the other is a modern British wizard. Even more interestingly, maybe the connections would be completely inexplicable to us, with no apparent rhyme or reason perceptible to humans.

Voloskaya - @Voloskaya 3 days ago

Found the "Operating Systems" neurons that reacts to Windows, Linux and Penguins [1], as well as what seems to be the "overweight" neuron [2]

[1] https://microscope-azure-edge.openai.com/models/contrastive_...

[2] https://microscope-azure-edge.openai.com/models/contrastive_...

colah3 - @colah3 3 days ago

Direct link to paper: https://distill.pub/2021/multimodal-neurons/

biasdose - @biasdose 3 days ago

I'm impressed with OpenAI confronting this head on.

"Our model, despite being trained on a curated subset of the internet, still inherits its many unchecked biases and associations."

If these models find themselves into production environment - if they are good enough and profitable enough - they will eventually become legacy systems quietly perpetuating the biases of past times.

iujjkfjdkkdkf - @iujjkfjdkkdkf 3 days ago

Can someone give more technical detail on what they are showing with the "neurons"?

They say "Each neuron is represented by a feature visualization with a human-chosen concept labels to help quickly provide a sense of each neuron", and these neurons are selected from the final layer. I don't think I understand this.

nicholastsmith - @nicholastsmith 3 days ago

I thought neuroscience had largely moved away from the idea of "grandmother neurons" in favor of sparsity [1]. This seems to suggest that the model is functioning differently than the human brain...

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6822296/

endisneigh - @endisneigh 3 days ago

I'm not sure what you would call it, but is there any research into the dilemma that exists when an artificial intelligence surpasses its creator? How exactly would we evaluate its decisions?

I'm not suggesting this example is the case, but with AlphaZero, for example many of the moves are beyond an average players comprehension. What happens when it's beyond the greatest of us?

Exciting times are ahead!

gillesjacobs - @gillesjacobs 3 days ago

> A CLIP model consists of two sides, a ResNet vision model and a Transformer language model, trained to align pairs of images and text from the internet using a contrastive loss.

It isn't surprising that a model trained for alligning photos and corresponding text labels has neurons that have learned higher semantic concepts as that is exactly the goal of generalisation.

kowlo - @kowlo 3 days ago

The typographic attacks are great fun. Labelling an apple as a toaster is all it takes!

nl - @nl 3 days ago

The misclassification of a poodle as a piggy bank by putting "$$$" in text on it is amazing to see work:

The finance neuron [1330], for example, responds to images of piggy banks, but also responds to the string “$$$”. By forcing the finance neuron to fire, we can fool our model into classifying a dog as a piggy bank.

Show all comments on Hackernews

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Bitcoin_is_plan_A redditor for 1 week 2 days ago

In other exciting news, we’re also announcing the latest recipient of the OKCoin Bitcoin Developer Grant — Antoine Riard — who also just so happens to focus on Lightning development.

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Bitcoin_is_plan_A redditor for 1 week 2 days ago

nice

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Mood_Senior redditor for 3 months 3 days ago

Hey guys - i'm at OKCoin so happy to answer any Qs you have about the integration.

We're really excited to help grow the lightning ecosystem as the more that adopt it, the better for all of Bitcoin.

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SleeperSmith 2 days ago

Are you guys looking to (help) facilitate channel funding and act as a lightning hub? Or are you guys only interested in people being able to deposit/withdraw from OKCoin? Thanks in advance.

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Mood_Senior redditor for 3 months 2 days ago

Yes our channel is node info is open and we will work with more partners and the community to. build out more channels.

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cludger redditor for 3 months 2 days ago

No questions from me, just wanted to say that this is really great and that I'll be signing up to your exchange to test it out. Great stuff!

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velocity303 3 days ago

I'm excited to create a channel to your guy's node. I'll be doing that soon! You guys are quickly becoming my favorite exchange after the BCH and BSV delist, covering customers during the YFI hack, and being the only ones who offer STX and offering a staking service. Can't recommend okcoin enough.

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mooshicat 3 days ago

Ok

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Miky06 3 days ago

this is huge!!

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johnturtle 3 days ago

I was not expecting them to be the second major exchange after bitfinex. Looks like it's time to open an account with them.

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supersoeak redditor for 1 week 3 days ago

okcoin also made a really good writeup for taproot. https://blog.okcoin.com/2021/01/15/how-schnorr-taproot-is-going-to-change-bitcoin-in-2021/

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llewsor 3 days ago

👏👏👏

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juniorboomerX 3 days ago

Yes that is awesome. The start of using lightning by exchanges will mature lightning. Hope many will use it.

Offers Kraken already lightning or what is the status there?

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supersoeak redditor for 1 week 3 days ago

adopting lighting requires a full time employee pretty much, which means at least two salaried employees to work in shifts. Its just not feasible for most companies. Someone should make a business that specifically manages lightning payments infrastructure for exchanges and various other services. It would be a big hit after some time.

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__pache__ 3 days ago

No it doesn't. It's another adapter, that's about it ..

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supersoeak redditor for 1 week 3 days ago

there are uptime issues with the channels especially if you are doing many transactions. it needs to be monitored 24/7 if you are serious about it. Obviously this might change as the network matures but for now its a full time job if you manage any meaningful amount of transactions.

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__pache__ 3 days ago

Depends on your implementation, what if you leverage some block stream service or something?

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supersoeak redditor for 1 week 3 days ago

that could work.

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lowercaseCapitalist 3 days ago

My understanding is that Kraken dont support it yet but will this year.

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BubblegumTitanium 3 days ago

It’s such an obvious use case for lightning