Token Daily

Culi122 Crypto Nerd 8 hs ago

To be fair this happened before the end of the last bear market too. If we didn't see this rise in use during the bear market, it would be alarming, and a sign that crypto is not being adopted. But since we are seeing it, we can expect another bull market, but it can come after another leg down and/or one year of consolidation like in 2014.

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lazarus_free 9 hs ago

And that is without counting Lightning and Liquid sidechains.

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jetrucci 6 - 7 years account age. 350 - 700 comment karma. 10 hs ago

People are paying for the sweet security others don't have.

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Poop_Coin_Patrick Redditor for 2 months. 10 hs ago

Generally, a top on this chart indicates a dump. Not right away. But once it breaks the trending slope, retests and fails to break above. I’ve been using this metric for big moves for a while. Alternately, when it goes green on the bottom, time to load up the longs.

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synergisticsymbiosis 11 hs ago

any idea what caused the upsidedown batman before the most recent spike?

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paul__3 10 hs ago

Veriblock testnet end - mainnet start

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DygonZ Crypto Nerd | QC: CC 20 Yesterday

You mean, right as it was plummeting?

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Hotgeart Crypto Nerd Yesterday

oh boy

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DygonZ Crypto Nerd | QC: CC 20 Yesterday

[Here I go plummeting again!](https://imgflip.com/i/2zbjrd)

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bitusher Yesterday

Far over previous tx records as we now have LN and sidechains like liquid

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TechCynical Crypto Expert | QC: CC 66, BCH 17 Yesterday

Alternative title. Btc fees rising as high as levels not seen since 2018

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MajesticAnimal Yesterday

that also means, 0 fee transaction fee coins will moon again. I am talking about Nano. In Dec 2017, BTC tx fee was about 35$, then Nano went to moon.

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Hanspanzer Crypto God | QC: BTC 199, CC 65 10 hs ago

well build a 2-way-pegged Nano sidechain to Bitcoin then. Or do you just want to pump your bags?

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Robby16 Crypto God | QC: CC 238 Yesterday

That’s not why nano went to the moon. It was hyped up that’s it. Not a single person is purchasing any crypto in hopes to use it. It’s all just to sell it higher. Btc ain’t gonna become a currency without second layer scaling which is being worked on. Also and it won’t matter. It’s a new hedge like gold and don’t matter what the fees are. Massive institutions and conglomerates don’t give a shit about paying $6 fee when purchasing $1 billion worth for example. And not a single institution is going to be buying a Cryptocurrency in the hopes of replacing the dollar. The real money is going to hedge against future infrastructure coins like ETH and smart contract platforms alike and ofc BTC as it is the brand name and best network / secure coin With the most infrastructure and regulation around it inc on-ramp like bakkt and ETFs.

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Kuna_shiri Crypto God | QC: CC 109, NANO 71 8 hs ago

It was hyped while there was no exchange with good reputation and guys with thousands of nano could not withdrawn it due delayed approving KYC . If it was on Bittrex or Polo before Christmas 2018 it would never reach $30 next month.

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throwawayLouisa Crypto Mega God | QC: BCC 1m, CC √-1, Karma Farmin Yesterday

Cool story bro...

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CryptoCabal666 Low Crypto Activity | QC: CC 25 | 6 months old 9 hs ago

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Robby16 Crypto God | QC: CC 238 Yesterday

Buy nano then

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eragmus Crypto God | QC: IOTA 148, CC 23 Yesterday

I “don’t give a shit about paying $6 fee when purchasing” even as low as $1,000 (0.6% fee), either. That is, investors and traders don’t care, and so they in fact are the ones bidding up the fees to get top priority during times of very high demand. Btw, hodlers are also using Bitcoin when they buy it, when they store value in it.

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throwawayLouisa Crypto Mega God | QC: BCC 1m, CC √-1, Karma Farmin Yesterday

>"I don’t give a shit about paying $6 fee when purchasing” ...while it's rising fast and you FOMO... FTFY. But the moment the market falters during high fees, *all* buyers disappear.

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UpDown Yesterday

This time nano will not return to earth because fool me once can’t get fooled again

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FamiliarInflation Crypto Nerd 10 hs ago

It's perfect. When BTC's fees skyrocket because everyone is goes FOMO, Nano's fees will stay at 0 Nano.

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Toyake Crypto God | QC: CC 299 Yesterday

$1.71 average transaction fee.

If btc hits it's ATH that's $6.10 to move your money.

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Chromtastisch Crypto Nerd | QC: CC 40 Yesterday

Where do you guys get those fees? If I send Bitcoin I only have to pay 10-30 cents.

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Kuna_shiri Crypto God | QC: CC 109, NANO 71 8 hs ago

Segwit transactions are much cheaper.

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DylanKid Crypto God | QC: BCH 415, CC 137 10 hs ago

Send a tx with 10 cent fee and post the tx id here so we all can see how many hours (days?) it takes to confirm.

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Kuna_shiri Crypto God | QC: CC 109, NANO 71 8 hs ago

You can set only sat/B 12 sat/B could be in next or other block. With Segwit even less.

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Toyake Crypto God | QC: CC 299 Yesterday

https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees.html

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TheRealMotherOfOP Crypto God | QC: CC 128, BCH 86, BTC 15 Yesterday

Avarage is always higher than the median, lots of people are overpaying but the median is what most people are paying. Edit; instead of correcting this, read the follow up comments

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Chromtastisch Crypto Nerd | QC: CC 40 10 hs ago

My fees are 0.80 - 1.10 and thats ok. If I want lower fees I go ETH or free transfer coins LUL

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steve98989 Low Crypto Activity 11 hs ago

Sorry but I have to correct this, whether relevant or not. Median is the middle value in the data set. The average or mean value can be higher, lower or the same as the median, it depends on how the dataset is distributed. The mode is the most common value in the dataset, so the most paid fee value.

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TheRealMotherOfOP Crypto God | QC: CC 128, BCH 86, BTC 15 10 hs ago

Sure definition wise you are absolutely right and my wording was off. But in Bitcoin the avarage and median are [usually the only two used](https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-median_transaction_fee.html) Yes they are not higher if looked at the definition, but in bitcoin they are since high value transfers always overpay to make sure their transactions are included in the next block. Also absolutely true the median isn't the most common, but it is best to represent actual paid fees over the *common user* since the avarage is always much higher. But thanks that correction is welcome

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anglomentality Crypto Nerd | QC: CC 40 Yesterday

True but that's still better than western union and the infrastructure is improving.

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filleokus - @filleokus Yesterday

I knew about Bitcoin quite early and always believed (absurdly incorrect with 20/20 hindsight) that the price ought to correlate to the "actual" utility of bitcoins, i.e how many transactions were performed to purchase goods and services. I imagined a future where bitcoins would be used for micro transactions online, illegal purchases (drugs/≈Wikileaks/banned stuff in dictatorships) and by people in hyper inflationary economies. I speculated that if the price would reach multiple thousands of USD per BTC, we would have seen massive adoption for even mainstream uses.

It's so strange, because I love the ideology behind it and the decentralised technology, and by many measurements bitcoin and other crypto initiatives would be considered a somewhat success if we didn't have the price to look at. That I can pseudo anonymously (or completely anonymous with stuff like zCash/Monero) transfer a token of wealth over the internet without a central party is so cool.

But I'm afraid that almost all of the price increase is simply a hype/speculation/hold-cycle that inevitable never will survive.

apo - @apo Yesterday

Tulip Mania lasted a few months during 1636/1637:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

Yet this episode continues to be trotted out whenever the Bitcoin exchange rate does something... unusual. It's been happening for eight years now.

Time to move on and either develop a new analogy, or finally decide that Bitcoin is unlike anything that's come before it.

nemild - @nemild Yesterday

I was in YC during the same time as Coinbase (where I now work), and personally, I think cryptocurrencies are transformational. Having grown up during the Internet era and hearing from my parents about the Mainframe -> PC era, use cases and viable businesses take time. Even founders in early, disruptive spaces have a hard time figuring out the use cases.

Here's my own thoughts on why rational people — and media — get disruptive markets (like crypto) wrong:

> As someone who had worked in banking and and microfinance, I got excited about the idea of credible digital scarcity, programmable money, and open financial systems. I didn’t quite know the use cases that would follow, but it was clear to me that the world would never be the same.

> Mostly though, everyone I respected thought cryptocurrencies were stupid. One MBA classmate haughtily wrote off cryptocurrencies as only useful for drugs and pornography. My old management consulting friends—all from elite American universities—pooh poohed Bitcoin and other open cryptocurrencies as they fixated on the needs of their lucrative banking clients. The vast majority of successful, rational people disdained everything about cryptocurrency.

https://www.nemil.com/crypto/rationally-irrational.html

seibelj - @seibelj Yesterday

If you are a software entrepreneur, raising money by selling digital assets (“tokens”) is a legitimate option that flips VC on its head with instant liquidity and value based on the success of the network.

Ethereum raised $15 million to fund their network, which now has a market cap around $18 billion.

Cosmos launched their mainnet yesterday, and now has a market cap over $1 billion. All of the employees can exit if they choose, who were given tokens rather than illiquid stock.

https://cosmos.network/

To be perfectly honest, this is a much fairer system for the average employee at a startup than our current ISO situation, where employees are diluted, forced to pay ridiculous AMT taxes on exercise, and basically screwed by the founders.

ketsa - @ketsa Yesterday

What Bust? I mined bitcoins for a few weeks years ago and their value today makes me happy...

tim333 - @tim333 Yesterday

They could be like Tulips and still do ok. Global flower sales are $67bn and that's product to end customers, not just speculators flipping things to each other.

kristianc - @kristianc Yesterday

> Bitcoin’s critics say the digital tokens are like the tulip bulbs of 17th-century Holland. They generated a wild, speculative rush that quickly disappeared, leaving behind nothing but pretty flowers and wrecked bank accounts

Which Tulip bubble? The small one that actually happened and was largely a small group of wealthy people trying to outdo each other, or Mackay’s wildly exaggerated account that has seeped into popular legend?

tialaramex - @tialaramex Yesterday

Badly mis-characterizes "the Internet", annoyingly common mistake that to me says I should ignore any further speculation because if you don't understand the present you've a worse than pure luck chance to correctly predict the future.

The Internet is the completion of (the latest and vitally important phase of) the Network. The Network is like the Word, that's how big a deal it is.

Brief pause for definitions: The Word is the idea that makes language possible. Units of meaning that can be transmitted by one person and then received by other people, a revolutionary idea that by definition is prehistoric (history itself is an Application of the Word). The Network is a way for people to send and receive information over a distance, it works very well with the Word, and it's hard to imagine the Network without the Word, but it would actually stand on its own: sharing video of a cat studiously choosing a very expensive fragile object to knock off a narrow shelf works fine without the Word if you want a very concrete example from your modern experience. In our world that video would have a title, and thus need the Word, but truth be told the video stands on its own if you haven't invented the Word.

Note that the Word is not just the written word, writing is a (big) incremental improvement in the Word idea, but speech was already a big deal. Likewise the Network is not just the Internet, the Internet is a (big) incremental improvement in the Network idea, but telephony, newspapers and even travelling minstrels are already a big deal.

Anyway, scarcely anything is going to be as big a deal as even these incremental improvements to fundamentals like the Word or Network. You might think Money is a big idea, but that's _peanuts_ to the Word or the Network. If Bitcoin completely revolutionised Money (as if) that still wouldn't be anywhere near the difference the Internet makes.

So, Bitcoins are more like tulip mania because almost _everything_ is more like tulip mania. YA Fantasy novels, slogan T-shirts, pizza, marriage, any of these things is more like tulip mania than like the Internet.

granaldo - @granaldo Yesterday

So are the people who bought Binance coin the only one not broken by this? https://www.coingecko.com/en/coins/ath

coldtea - @coldtea Yesterday

Bitcoins are more like a fire at a rainforest.

Massive carbon footprint for no benefit...

latchkey - @latchkey Yesterday

Every time I see Bitcoin compared with Tulip Mania, I'm reminded of this article:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/there-never-was-real-...

arisAlexis - @arisAlexis Yesterday

tulips had no innovation. period.

j45 - @j45 Yesterday

Maybe bitcoin is like Napster and will seed future interactions similar to it.

ataturk - @ataturk Yesterday

The fact that so many Wall Street types flocked to these cryptos solely because it is/was an unregulated market that they could manipulate speaks volumes about what it really is.

gjs278 - @gjs278 Yesterday

bitcoins are real estate. a transmission of these coins allows metadata on the most indisputable source of data on this planet. it can never be faked and it is forever. that is the true value.

TelmoMenezes - @TelmoMenezes Yesterday

The current price of bitcoin was considered a pipe dream by almost everyone just a few years ago. What bust?

Show all comments on Hackernews

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1DrK44np3gMKuvcGeFVv administrator Yesterday

What an epic piece Charlie!

I didn't think it was such a big deal at first, but now that you mention it it does seem big.

Glad the TQ team is supporting this.

What would you do with these tokens after you bought one? Doesn't it need an exchange too?

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wisercharlie Yesterday

Thank you! Hope to produce more pieces like this in the near future. If you're referring to the Aspen Digital token, I would probably treat it like any other real estate asset and hold onto it for many years. However, the key innovation with tokenization is \*optionality\* - always having the option to transact from anywhere in the world is a big value prop. Yes, I'm assuming there will be liquid exchanges to do so in the future. Elevated Returns' [latest initiative](https://cryptobriefing.com/real-estate-tokens-tezos/) is a step in that direction.

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nihao88888 Yesterday

" Elevated Returns, an investment firm focused on digitizing tangible assets, recently announced that it will tokenize its pipeline of real estate assets in excess of USD $1B on Tezos.

Elevated Returns is known for tokenizing USD $18M of the St. Regis Aspen Resort, thereby giving stakeholders in “Aspen Digital” ownership in the luxury resort proportional to their token holdings."

is that "aspen digital" token up and going? because i cannot find that token anywhere
Its kinda hard for me to believe that some company would tokenize $1B worth of asset already on a new platform that just finished its first onchain voting. tho id be glad if true

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surfingcathk 9 hs ago

Will they be using main net or a private network?

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1DrK44np3gMKuvcGeFVv administrator Yesterday

The sale website is here https://aspencoin.io/index.html Wonder if it's a mycelium job, sell the token and then be unable to trade it anywhere

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nexusforce Yesterday

The Aspen token is a REIT and was sold privately to accredited investors in a limited quantity which is why you can't find it anywhere. Here's the source: https://aspencoin.io/

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nihao88888 Yesterday

wow its kinda funny because security tokens were made to make barriers across the globe or regardless of their status , to invest freely using a digital token, yet they did their first token sale privately to accredited investors. kinda ironic

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nexusforce Yesterday

Well it seems part of the reason they did so was because of the regulatory environment. They didn't want to register under the Securities Act which is costly/time consuming and strategically decided to sell under Regulation D which allows the security issuer to be unregistered. However, one of the requirements is that the buyers have to be accredited investors. So it was a trade off to be able to sell the innovative security as easily as possible and at the lowest administrative costs. I suspect that we might be given supportive regulatory guidance regarding security tokens or perhaps even new advantageous regulations at some point in the near future. Especially when large traditional exchanges like the NYSE and newcomers like Coinbase start issuing security tokens. Once that happens security token offerings, like the one from elevated returns, wouldn't have to be limited. They would also be far simpler and more accessible for retail investors to trade.

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wisercharlie Yesterday

I can't help you #1. Regarding #2 - I suggest checking out [this](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/elevated-returns-and-securitize-to-tokenize-usd-1b-of-real-estate-on-tezos-will-build-new-compliant-security-token-issuance-standards-300793038.html?tc=eml_cleartime) article (cited in the piece), [this](https://youtu.be/cKHj99-8pI8?t=1574) presentation by Stephane De Baets (Founder and President of Elevated Returns), and [this](https://cryptobriefing.com/real-estate-tokens-tezos/) recent article on a related initiative.

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cryptonian0011 Yesterday

🙏

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cryptomaniac12345 Yesterday

Great piece 👍👍

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Katherine Wu - @katherineykwu

RT @lightning: Today our Lightning app launches on Bitcoin mainnet! ⚡️ Try our desktop alpha featuring Neutrino, Autopilot, and a Lightning user experience that puts users in control and privacy first. Read more and install here: https://t.co/3Em5s0svZX https://t.co/nR1ze0yDpZ

308 810

Christopher Wheeler - @Stocktrader

Lightning Labs Blog - The Official Blog of Lightning Labs https://t.co/ZyZBD8F96A

15 77

Ash Egan - @AshAEgan

Exciting day for crypto https://t.co/vNbo4tZ5pi

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Kyle Torpey - @kyletorpey

.@lightning's desktop app is now available on Bitcoin mainnet in an alpha release. https://t.co/i0s9Cc3bIc

0 6

Andreas M. Antonopoulos - @aantonop

RT @lightning: Today our Lightning app launches on Bitcoin mainnet! ⚡️ Try our desktop alpha featuring Neutrino, Autopilot, and a Lightning user experience that puts users in control and privacy first. Read more and install here: https://t.co/3Em5s0svZX https://t.co/nR1ze0yDpZ

132 357

Pierre Rochard - @pierre_rochard

RT @lightning: Today our Lightning app launches on Bitcoin mainnet! ⚡️ Try our desktop alpha featuring Neutrino, Autopilot, and a Lightning user experience that puts users in control and privacy first. Read more and install here: https://t.co/3Em5s0svZX https://t.co/nR1ze0yDpZ

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Matt Odell - @matt_odell

RT @lightning: Today our Lightning app launches on Bitcoin mainnet! ⚡️ Try our desktop alpha featuring Neutrino, Autopilot, and a Lightning user experience that puts users in control and privacy first. Read more and install here: https://t.co/3Em5s0svZX https://t.co/nR1ze0yDpZ

97 248

ecurrencyhodler [Ex X-men] - @ecurrencyhodler

RT @lightning: Today our Lightning app launches on Bitcoin mainnet! ⚡️ Try our desktop alpha featuring Neutrino, Autopilot, and a Lightning user experience that puts users in control and privacy first. Read more and install here: https://t.co/3Em5s0svZX https://t.co/nR1ze0yDpZ

84 218

Olaoluwa Osuntokun - @roasbeef

RT @lightning: Today our Lightning app launches on Bitcoin mainnet! ⚡️ Try our desktop alpha featuring Neutrino, Autopilot, and a Lightning user experience that puts users in control and privacy first. Read more and install here: https://t.co/3Em5s0svZX https://t.co/nR1ze0yDpZ

84 217

elizabeth stark - @starkness

RT @lightning: Today our Lightning app launches on Bitcoin mainnet! ⚡️ Try our desktop alpha featuring Neutrino, Autopilot, and a Lightning user experience that puts users in control and privacy first. Read more and install here: https://t.co/3Em5s0svZX https://t.co/nR1ze0yDpZ

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Dennis Parker⚡️ - @Xentagz

RT @lightning: Today our Lightning app launches on Bitcoin mainnet! ⚡️ Try our desktop alpha featuring Neutrino, Autopilot, and a Lightning user experience that puts users in control and privacy first. Read more and install here: https://t.co/3Em5s0svZX https://t.co/nR1ze0yDpZ

51 132

Wong Joon Ian - @joonian

RT @lightning: Today our Lightning app launches on Bitcoin mainnet! ⚡️ Try our desktop alpha featuring Neutrino, Autopilot, and a Lightning user experience that puts users in control and privacy first. Read more and install here: https://t.co/3Em5s0svZX https://t.co/nR1ze0yDpZ

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N53W6 9 hs ago

A big thank you for all the brain power it took to make this!

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Hanspanzer 9 hs ago

syncing after 8 hours sleep takes quite a while (1-2min). why is that?

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throwaway000000666 10 hs ago

I'm stuck on "loading network"... isn't it possible to have two lnd instances on the same LAN?

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BashCo Yesterday

Exciting stuff, looks slick so far.

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lobt Yesterday

Boss

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753UDKM Yesterday

Awesome!! Trying it out now.

!lntip 1000

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lntipbot Yesterday

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davidcwilliams Yesterday

Why not grab a coffee. This could take a few minutes.

4 hours later

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roasbeef Lightning Network Expert Yesterday

Waiting for confirmations, or for neutrino to finish syncing?

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davidcwilliams Yesterday

I think syncing? https://imgur.com/hd5l6Sa

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roasbeef Lightning Network Expert Yesterday

Do you see the block height in the top level increase at all? Does the issue persist if you restart `lnd`?

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davidcwilliams Yesterday

Nevermind! It works! After it saying 'almost there' for most the day. I closed out, and restarted. It synced no problem and reflected the balance of what I had sent earlier that day. Thanks for the help /u/roasbeef.

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davidcwilliams Yesterday

Oh! Hi roasbeef! I didn't realize you were helping me. No, it says 'Syncing to chain (block: 304000), and the number hasn't changed since I started it. How would I restart 'lnd'? Am I misunderstanding how to use this software? Do I need my own node?

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po00on Yesterday

u/roasbeef does this mean neutrino is now mainnet ?

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royally_fukd Yesterday

does this make no sense to you all also?

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fatassdab Yesterday

jesus christ. x.xxxxxx SATOSHI's i hope some day satoshi's will be the easiest unit to use for purchases

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Subfolded Yesterday

Sorry for what may be a silly question:

I'm already 8 months into my Full BTC Node + Lightning Node (platform9and3quarters) however this looks really nice and I'd like to try it out as a second (much smaller) node for fun. Am I correct that Neutrino allows me to run a fully routing LN node without another BTC Core full node? I may try running this on a different PC than my main node.

EDITED to add: https://i.imgur.com/J6HDGbU.jpg

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roasbeef Lightning Network Expert Yesterday

Yeah so the application packages all both `lnd+neutrino` in one. It's a much lighter weight set up compared to running another `lnd` node with `bitcoind`.

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Subfolded Yesterday

Awesome! Excited to try it out.

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pumpkin105 Yesterday

When I have an lnd node running on my raspberry pi, could I use that node as backend and the desktop app as frontend?

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wndringE Yesterday

<3

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fermentedbolivian redditor for 4 weeks Yesterday

This the UI we need to see more often.

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sreaka Yesterday

Nice work roasbeef

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FantasticEchidna4 Yesterday

where's the signature for the wallet? and what public key? I'm gonna put real money on this.

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roasbeef Lightning Network Expert Yesterday

The applications are code signed at the OS level. On Mac OS you can check the binary with: > codesign -dv --verbose=4 /Applications/Lightning.app

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FantasticEchidna4 Yesterday

thanks. how can I verify on linux?

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RussianGunOwner Yesterday

Trust. Don't verify.

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FantasticEchidna4 Yesterday

why the fuck the down votes? is people stupid here? it is known that a bad actor can binary patch release files for privacy software. it is vital to verify. and there's no clear instructions for doing that in this case.

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Bruceleeroy18 Yesterday

!lntip 1000

Thanks roasbeef

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lntipbot Yesterday

Hi u/Bruceleeroy18, thanks for tipping u/roasbeef **1000** satoshis! *** *[^(More info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/lntipbot/wiki/index) ^| [^(Balance)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=lntipbot&subject=balance&message=!balance) ^| [^(Deposit)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=lntipbot&subject=deposit&message=!deposit 10000) ^| [^(Withdraw)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=lntipbot&subject=withdraw&message=!withdraw put_invoice_here) ^| ^(Something wrong? Have a question?) [^(Send me a message)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=drmoore718)*

2

Mr--Robot Yesterday

Is there a way to pay for opening a new channel directly, avoiding an onchain tx to the wallet first?
I see only the amount for opening a channel and the address of the node to where I want to open the channel. So basically will take from the onchain wallet the funds for the channel.
Can we skip that step where I have to move from somewhere else wallet to this wallet some funds and then open a channel with the funds I already have on the onchain wallet?

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roasbeef Lightning Network Expert Yesterday

> Can we skip that step where I have to move from somewhere else wallet to this wallet some funds and then open a channel with the funds I already have on the onchain wallet? For now you need to "deposit" funds into this wallet. In the future, once [Lightning Loop](https://blog.lightning.engineering/posts/2019/03/20/loop.html) is integrated in the application, you'll be able to use it to top off an _existing_ channel.

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bitusher Yesterday

Found it , Click on "X on lightning" text below fiat, than top right click "add" button, enter the amount and the channel and click done

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Mr--Robot Yesterday

I know that, but I am talking about not having to pass through a tx from another onchain wallet to this onchain wallet and then to opening a channel.

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bitusher Yesterday

Gotcha, yes , that is a problem that needs a git issue , legacy segwit only deposits. Should show native segwit default, with link below to change to legacy segwit and right beside onchain deposit should give LN QR code and address

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e3ee3 Yesterday

We need that Loop integration

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roasbeef Lightning Network Expert Yesterday

🔜

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FantasticEchidna4 Yesterday

oh great! downloading right away!

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bitusher Yesterday

Beautiful wallet UX. Downloading to test now

Thus far , I notice one issue that is a security concern. Desktop Wallets should not have the BIP39 password in plaintext as that encourages copy and pasting it digitally which is dangerous. People need to manually write down these words physically and not store them digitally.

edit - wow that was a quick sync . Nuetrino is neat.

Neat that it obscures the difference between onchain and LN

edit 2 --- logs are important but only people like roasbeef can read that fast as mine is scrolling like crazy .. needs a button to export logfile instead

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davidcwilliams Yesterday

> Neat that it obscures the difference between onchain and LN I haven't tested this wallet yet, but yeah, I have always thought that this would be the goal of Bitcoin/Lightning Network... full where the casual user would see no difference between on-chain and off.

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bitusher Yesterday

Yes, it shows you the onchain and offchain balances different , but unlike eclair when you send BTC it doesn't make a distinction , you can paste or scan in a LN qr code or onchain address

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roasbeef Lightning Network Expert Yesterday

> Desktop Wallets should not have the BIP39 password in plaintext as that encourages copy and pasting it digitally which is dangerous. People need to manually write down these words physically and not store them digitally. It's actually not BIP 39, it's a [cipher seed](https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/tree/master/aezeed). It has some cool things that make it easier for neutrino to use like a birthday so we know when to start the rescan from. We don't store the seed internally, and instead require the user to confirm it.

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bitusher Yesterday

neat , so cipher seeds are a new standard for nuetrino wallets?

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roasbeef Lightning Network Expert Yesterday

It's what `lnd` uses, have been meaning to write it up as a BIP since it's also linked to things like our SCB format as well.

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cfromknecht Lightning Network Expert Yesterday

they are the standard for all LND nodes

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roasbeef Lightning Network Expert Yesterday

> edit 2 --- logs are important but only people like roasbeef can read that fast as mine is scrolling like crazy .. needs a button to export logfile instead Yeah there's a PR up to slow down the rate the scrolling for the logs. You can also find them on disk depending on your operating system.

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ninja_batman Yesterday

> Desktop Wallets should not have the BIP39 password in plaintext as that encourages copy and pasting it digitally which is dangerous. I agree that this is bad practice for large amounts, but if you have a bunch of wallets, I personally don't think it is unreasonable to store the backup seed phrase in your password manager or as encrypted files on disk for the smaller ones.

1

bitusher Yesterday

Yes , a password manager like keepass could be fine for smaller amounts. Issue here is that some idiot will install this on their infected windows machine and deposit a larger amount. Better to force users to use good security practices as a default than if they want they can type the words in a pass manager later.

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tookdrums Yesterday

> logs is important but only people like roasbeef can read that fast as mine is scrolling like crazy So true, you have to watch his presentation on youtube at minimum 0.75 speed

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dinglebarry9 Yesterday

u/roasbeef you are my hero and 4 years younger. Great job, oh and if you see this I started a small Lightning development business and we think we have found a way to bring the LN to mass adoption. I would love to discuss with you and get your opinion on our security model.

18

cyborgene Yesterday

I'd love to hear it too if I may of course

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pierenjan Yesterday

Ooh exciting!

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25 1 7

bananafest_destiny 9 hs ago

Link for mobile users who hate pop-ups:

https://outline.com/PhjGnS

1

qznc_bot 10 hs ago

There is a discussion on Hacker News, but feel free to comment here as well.

1

ViolentJenniferLopez Redditor for 20 days. Yesterday

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't there some way to see, at least with BTC, what a certain word or phrase would correspond to as an address?

In theory, lots of password1985 s out there.

2

sandball Yesterday

Great article, thanks for the post.

I've always been worried most about this aspect of security in crypto:

or even that included malicious code, corrupting the randomization process to make keys easy to guess for the wallet's developer.

2

Mqzp Yesterday

All it takes is a bug, or a breakthrough in number theory or quantum computing — suddenly poof all your crypto currency is worthless.

3

braclayrab Yesterday

The same is true for SSL.

0

slindenau 11 hs ago

Sure, but SSL (TLS more specific, we don't use SSL anymore) can be fixed in a few days. BTC in it's current decentralized state is already hesitant to push updates that break anything, as nodes are not likely to update. And if SSL is broken one day, you can just NOT use sensitive websites until it's fixed without losing anything. The blockchain can't be turned off, and people WILL walk away with your coins ;).

1

bobo1984i Yesterday

Don’t need to guess keys if you run an exchange.

3

cybertheory Yesterday

Hey guys, have you heard of the Social Media Health and Safety Petition?

It is blowing up and is the next biggest thing. It has been published in the online publication "The Startup" with around half a million subscribers.

As students who obviously care a lot about our futures, I also believe that it is our responsibility to hold social media companies responsible to their users now so that in the future we can secure a peace of mind for ourselves and our loved ones.

Here is a link to the article: https://medium.com/swlh/the-social-media-health-and-safety-petition-76ab64228eb4

And here is the petition: https://www.change.org/p/facebook-create-health-safety-conventions-in-the-development-of-interactive-social-applications

0

WeaponizedMath Developer Yesterday

TLDR people use weak passphrases to generate their wallets.

6

SatoshiNakaFOMO Yesterday

BREAKING NEWS: Homeowner stores valuables on front porch - DISCOVERS THEM MISSING NEXT MORNING!

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michapman2 Yesterday

Honestly that would be even safer. At least on your front porch you might see who stole it.

5

Crypto_To_The_Core Yesterday

Some highlights from the linked article:

the researchers not only found that cryptocurrency users have in the last few years stored their crypto treasure with hundreds of easily guessable private keys, but also uncovered what they call a "blockchain bandit." A single Ethereum account seems to have siphoned off a fortune of 45,000 ether—worth at one point more than $50 million—using those same key-guessing tricks.

steal more than half a billion dollars worth of cryptocurrency in recent years.

2,846 bitcoins stolen with brain-wallet thefts, worth more than $17 million at current exchange rates.

One single Ethereum brain-wallet theft in late 2015 made off with 40,000 ether, nearly as big a haul as the blockchain bandit's.

And that's just some .... see linked article.

Hey u/ky1e, you probably have at least some of this in your list of Hacks, Glitches, Exit Scams, and other Lost Cryptocurrency Incidents, but just in case ....

6

brianddk Yesterday

Related (perhaps):

Crypto shocker: four of every 1,000 public keys provide no security (updated) | ArsTechnica

The researchers speculate that embedded systems may be a culprit. We will never know, but it would be interesting to know how many of pilfered ETH addresses were generated by mobile devices or other weak microcontroller.

1

Crypto_To_The_Core Yesterday

TRUSTLESS !!!!

UNHACKABLE !!!

3

murderousmungo Yesterday

I'm reading this with great interest, and would like some clarifications on some inferences that I am making.

From the story: ...if anyone knows an Ethereum private key, they can use it to derive the associated public address that the key unlocks.

Inference:

If you know the private key, you can find the public
A dictionary based brute force on the most simple combinations of keys should yield results
Any random Hex64 code could theoretically be an ethereum private key
All ethereum addresses can be validated

So, by randomly hammering private key combos, you can trace the public key that would be associated to that, and check the blockchain for its existence, or validate using any one of the many validation methods?

Seems to me that brute force is actually viable. Yes, I get that the amount of processing power to do this work would be large, but, hey GPU's have some pretty impressive power these days.

I am now concerned about my own ethereum wallet.

So, please take apart this ridiculous idea, and make me feel better.

7

dopef123 Yesterday

Well the whole idea with cryptos is that there are so many possible public keys that it theoretically should basically be impossible to guess one. However computers can’t generate completely random numbers, they require seeds and are pseudorandom. If you picked apart the most popular wallet generating algorithm it’s possible you could determine a way to narrow down what wallets have been generated based on the method the random numbers were come up with.

1

ethtips Yesterday

Brute force of randomly searching addresses is possible, but that's actually one of the reasons there is mining. It is far more profitable to use the same brute forcing effort towards something that actually gets you a continual stream of cash like mining, than to play "win the lotto" and get a few pennies every few decades/etc.

2

R_Sholes Yesterday

Attacks like this work by guessing that somebody chose a private key from a list of millions (simple dictionary attacks) or billions (attacks based on weaknesses of specific implementations, eg. random generator might actually be not random but based on current date and time to milliseconds - then if you approximately know when a wallet was created, you can try reproducing that "random" generation for every millisecond of that day to crack it). Proper randomness chooses from all 2^256 possibilities (or billions of billions ... (6 times more "of billions") of possibilities), so they're safe until the underlying cryptography is broken.

3

murderousmungo Yesterday

Surely we cannot be so far away in terms of raw computing capability to being able to brute force 2^(256). Isn't this type of hyper aggressive, processor intensive work what the mining farms are actually doing (as POC rather than brute force)? I am technologically very literate, but am aware of what I dont know, so hence my questions here.

1

BreakingPony Yesterday

No, brute forcing such a large number is impossible. There is no computer that can be built to count that high according to our current understanding of the laws of physics. For example, it you were to build a perfect computer, a computer that can count using the least possible amount of energy, it would need to consume the amount of energy our sun produces in 1 year to try every combination in a 187 bit value. A 188 bit value would require twice as much energy. A perfectly efficient computer that can try every combination of a 256 bit value would have to consume the annual output of 590,295,810,358,705,651,712 suns like stars.  source: [https://hackernoon.com/a-physicists-journey-into-cracking-bitcoin-4631e57158cc](https://hackernoon.com/a-physicists-journey-into-cracking-bitcoin-4631e57158cc)

2

WiredEarp Yesterday

It has nothing to do with 'not being able to count high' and everything to do with looking for a value amongst trillions of possible values.

1

BreakingPony Yesterday

Looking for one number amongst trillions is easy. Brute forcing a 256 bit value is looking for one number amongst 115792089237316195423570985008687907853269984665640564039457584 quadrillion possible values. That's not so easy. And yes, it does involve counting. Every operation that turns a bit from a 0 to a 1 or from a 1 to a 0, is a counting operation. It is the simplest possible operation a computer can do.

2

WiredEarp Yesterday

>There is no computer that can be built to count that high according to our current understanding of the laws of physics. That statement is manifestly incorrect, and isn't really anything to do with the problem at all. It's simply looking for a needle in a haystack, not a haystack too big to count.

3

Sarcastinator Yesterday

Brute force is going through every permutation one by one. In order to not check the same number twice the easiest way is to count. The article claims that the sun doesn't emit enough energy to flip the transistors for every permutation, and you don't even come close.

2

BreakingPony Yesterday

It's a matter of probability then. If 100% of the sun's energy could be dedicated to generating random 256bit numbers as efficiently and as fast as possible, continuously for a billion years, the odds of the same number appearing twice during that time, or finding the needle in a haystack, though possible, is something a smart person wouldn't put money on.

2

R_Sholes Yesterday

* If current Bitcoin farms were able to bruteforce keys at the same speed as they're mining (and they're **extremely** specialized for mining to achieve this speed) * and their hardware was a trillion times faster * and there were a trillion times as many of them * and we gave that many farms to every single human alive today then this setup would be able to bruteforce a specific key in a few billion years. More realistic danger is advances in quantum computing, so during next decade there will be gradual phasing out of currently vulnerable algorithms (Ethereum's and Bitcoin's included). Just don't get phished or hacked until then, and don't miss the window to replace your current key because all the old keys will likely be deemed dead and lost after that.

2

murderousmungo Yesterday

I'm not referring to a single key, it's any working key. Out of the millions that currently exist. I do get what you're saying though. Any working key has a chance to contain a whole lot, however it's a lottery, which I understand.

1

R_Sholes Yesterday

Article says there are ~50M keys on Ethereum's chain (it's similar for Bitcoin). This would only reduce the number to an average of one key per 2 centuries after you scale everything as I said. And I'm actually off by a factor of a million in the final number (you need to replace "trillions" by "quadrillions" to get that one), so it's one random key of currently existing in 200 million years for *that* setup.

1

murderousmungo Yesterday

Excellent. Well, that's that then. Thanks for your patience with me! Appreciate it.

1

Cr3X1eUZ Yesterday

This is good for Bitcoin.

9

segwitless Yesterday

If only these people with easy to guess keys were storing their crypto on the Quadriga exchange.

6

Crypto_To_The_Core Yesterday

.... then Gerry would keep their coinz 100% SAFU. 100,000+ Quadriga Butters did nothing wrong.

4

diggsta buy low buy high Yesterday

Ledger Nano should be safe. There are so many and if only one got hacked, this would spread like a wildfire.

6

vanillab Yesterday

Hopelogic. It all depends how the key was generated.

1

Flip1313 1 - 2 year account age. 100 - 200 comment karma. Yesterday

To perform bulk scanning of potential Ethereum addresses, it is impractical, and even abusive in terms of resource usage, to query an online service like Etherscan. Instead, we generated an in-memory hash map of all public Ethereum addresses and queried this in-memory data structure for each enumerated key. On a local mid-range laptop this resulted in a performance of roughly 15,000 key generations and lookups per second, per CPU core

checking ~34.3 billion keys in an 8-hour period. So, it is feasible to run periodic checks to identify new private keys that have been introduce in future works.

So they checked EVERY address and only found “732“ private keys and they can check daily to see if any more week keys are generated

5

goopcat Yesterday

Y'all get a chance to read the research paper behind this? https://www.securityevaluators.com/casestudies/ethercombing/

1

Jubi_Lee Yesterday

Bednarek argues the lesson of ISE's ethercombing is, for wallet developers, to audit their code carefully to find any bug that might truncate keys and leave them vulnerable. And users should take care with what wallet they choose. "You can’t call the help desk and ask them to reverse a transaction. When it's gone, it’s gone forever," Bednarek says. "People should use trusted wallets and download them from a trusted source."

Oh! The lesson is, never drop your guard, but you will still have to trust some creepto developers that you carefully choose to believe are trustworthy.

And here I thought the lesson was, nobody can steal your Butts if you never have any...!

17

PlasmaSheep Yesterday

Be your own security auditor.

7

XmrFanMan Yesterday

This is my favorite part of crypto. People actually expect everyone to be able to read and understand massive amounts of code someone else wrote, and be able to audit it for backdoors. Even professionals have a hard time finding tricky backdoors in code. It'd be easier to write your own wallet. Somehow they expect mass adoption and decentralization this way. I'm sure that 99% of butters couldn't even figure out how to compile a shitcoin's code. The Parity hack showed how much trust is in these "trustless" systems. Open source code, on the ETH blockchain, and people deposited over $100 million before some kid just screwing around managed to destroy the contract and lock everyone's funds forever. Don't trust those macroeconomists, or those filthy statists at the Fed, or the full faith and credit of nations, trust some random internet guy with your money.

9

dgerard Yesterday

it's ok they just have to work out what #include means

3

HopeFox 11 hs ago

import security

2

michapman2 Yesterday

This is the key reason why it'll never hit widespread adoption. The amount of time investment required to safely use or even hold crypto currencies is too high. You basically have to have a Ph.D in computer science. How many people are going to cut up their credit cards, which even a 5 year old can learn how to use, to figure out what amounts to a financial Rubix cube?

5

XmrFanMan Yesterday

Well put.

2

im-the-stig Yesterday

ELI5: That last transaction, that emptied the compromised wallet, should also be stored in the common ledger, right?

Are they going to the 'hacker's wallet, or is it just getting cashed out?

7

goopcat Yesterday

[https://etherscan.io/address/0x957cd4ff9b3894fc78b5134a8dc72b032ffbc464](https://etherscan.io/address/0x957cd4ff9b3894fc78b5134a8dc72b032ffbc464) looks like they are sitting on it

2

drpepper Yesterday

This is stupid. Itll take you longer than the age of the universe to guess a private key that holds funds.

0

GaiaPariah Philosopher Yesterday

Did you read the article? The way that this methodology works is to work from private keys that are generated from weak seeds, to figure out public keys that contain funds. It is not a case of working from public key to private key, but the other way around (since you can derive a public key from the private key).

10

goopcat 6 - 7 years account age. 350 - 700 comment karma. Yesterday

yeah, the research paper covers the method for how weak keys were brute forced. [https://www.securityevaluators.com/casestudies/ethercombing/](https://www.securityevaluators.com/casestudies/ethercombing/)

4

novadaemon Yesterday

"At the peak of Ethereum's exchange rate in January of 2013, the bandit's account held 38,000 ether, worth more than $54 million at the time."

Eth wasn't around in 2013.

22

goopcat 6 - 7 years account age. 350 - 700 comment karma. Yesterday

lol looks like they made a typo

6

juxtaposezen Yesterday

That is a little scary. I would assume than none of the keys that were “guessed” were generated from the hierarchical deterministic key creation (BIP32/BIP39/BIP44 etc) protocols like the Ledger Nano-S uses. I thought that was near impossible. I do not even actually know my private key. Only my seed that "knows" it.

14

Karavusk Yesterday

There are idiots who choose their own key... I tried out a few and found 200$ in a shitty altcoin backed by "oil". Never did anything with it though. It is really fun to try out a few combinations and a lot of them actually have some transactions (and are pretty much all empty or near empty)

1

Ber10 5 - 6 years account age. 600 - 1000 comment karma. Yesterday

Fantastic, how do you choose a complex seed/private key that wont be guessed ?

7

manly_ Yesterday

It's simple, you need a truly random input which isnt based off time (that can be attacked) or computer identifiers (could be attacked, especially for virtual machines). Thats why the old PGP software forced you to move the mouse sporadically for a while, so that that could be added to the RNG.  the problem is, some less technologically aware wallet apps will simply do like sha(passphrase + rng()) to generate your private key, not realizing that their RNG function is total garbage. Most RNG implementation arent secure to begin with, so its possible a wallet could have use one of those. It's a bit like people assuming you can use new\_guid() for a RNG source; it only guarantees uniqueness, not fair distribution of values.

8

trump-is-cancer Redditor for 20 days. Yesterday

Real question...but does this effect cold wallets?

4

BGoodej Yesterday

It doesn't matter of it's a cold or hot wallet. All that matters is how the key was generated.

2

ETHdude8686 Lover Yesterday

Are the keys from a ledger nano s safely created?

1

Automagick Yesterday

Yes, as long as you generate a new random seed when you first get it.