Token Daily

Funny they aren't raising the money in crypto tokens and want dollars instead.

2

Whattodo-goodppl Redditor for 5 months. Yesterday

They know they are getting less and less users and aren't USD approved with subpar (compared to competitors) trading UI and infrastructure. Let's see if some rich guys will buy at a "discount" 300 million, from their 4 billion dollar evaluation.

1

btchodler4eva Yesterday

Sounds like Mr Powell is cashing out. Asking for 4 billion without specific plans on how to spend it? Lol.

1

homm88 Yesterday

Raising at a 4 billion valuation does not mean that you're raising 4 billion. Lets say the investors only decide to invest 40m in total, so they get 1% of the company for that 40m. (since the valuation for 100% is 4b)

5

CrystalETH_ Yesterday

Lol, so Kraken is worth about half of the Ethereum network

2

TeamJinx Ethereum fan 2 hs ago

[https://avc.com/2018/12/when-markets-overcorrect/](https://avc.com/2018/12/when-markets-overcorrect/) Agree

1

HydraGene redditor for 3 months Yesterday

They are just preparing for 3rd of January. So that they can buy enough lent out Bitcoin back to be able to let user withdraw their coins. ;)

0

jimbonezz Yesterday

Maybe they can start by fixing their support first

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T3nsK10n3D3lTa03 Redditor for less than 60 days Yesterday

It's a bad time to be investing in the shitcoin space as it could all be going to zero. Only the strongest and sufficiently capitalized companies will survive the next few years. Looks like Kraken are on the ropes, hence the desperate plea for funding. Investing in that is about as smart as investing in Bitmain IPO when they're being bled dry by the hash war.

0

chainxor Yesterday

If you read the article you will see that Kraken are profitable and their investor round is not an IPO. The investment is for an aquisitions war chest. Many companies in the crypto sphere are cheap now and it is a perfect opertunity for the healthy businesses (like Kraken) to buy up and consolidate. Maybe Kraken can buy nChain when they are done mining at a loss and suing people left and right without developing anything of use themselves :-D Oh...wait that won't make sense since they're worthless.

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biffnipples Yesterday

Hey. Expect to hear from ayers lawyers for this libel. /s

3

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1

ABitcoinAllBot Yesterday

Here is the link to the original comment thread. Or you can comment here to start a discussion. Author: dnivi3

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skadamo80 Yesterday

Alot of this seems easy to us. But it needs to be easy to grandma and the sister in-law who cant even figure out how to use her cellphone.

2

mishax1 Yesterday

!lntip 1000

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lntipbot redditor for 3 months Yesterday

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1

knight222 Yesterday

Is Santa Claus real?

5

madppiper Yesterday

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

Perhaps a bit news-worthy - one of the original developers just left us a positive respone: https://www.scipioerp.com/2018/12/12/is-lightning-ready-for-commerce/#comment-378

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Danny1878 Yesterday

!lntip 100

2

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diydude2 redditor for 3 months Yesterday

They're really stretching in the "difficult to use" section. "1. Go to exhcange. 2. Buy Bitcoin 3. Open a wallet. 4. Put Bitcoin in wallet"

Making a piece of toast must be hard too. "1. Go to bread box. 2. Take out slice of bread 3. Open toaster 4. Put bread in toaster"

Setting up LN nodes and channels for businesses will probably be a great business in the next few years.

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severact 9 hs ago

In the Customer Section they have "Open a New Channel" and "Fund the New Channel" as two separate steps. In the channels I've manually opened, I've always done it in one step. I didn't even know opening an unfunded channel was an option.

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dalebewan Yesterday

I argued with this guy on his last article... I wouldn't bother. Essentially he's just a troll trying to pretend to be a "helpful developer pointing out valid concerns" when his concerns are - in reality - utter nonsense. One common tactic he has is to say "technology x has a problem" and when you point out that it's not the technology he backs off to "application that implements technology x has a problem" but once you try to actually get him to understand that, he ignores it and shifts back to "I already proved that technology x has a problem" while jumping in with personal attacks and so on.

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madppiper 41 mins ago

Ah, so we meet again: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/a3mgbm/the\_issue\_with\_bitcoin\_in\_commerce\_applications/eb7ct2i](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/a3mgbm/the_issue_with_bitcoin_in_commerce_applications/eb7ct2i) I honestly don't understand why it is me who is personally attacking you, when you were the one calling me an incompetent developer over at that thread and here again - which I pointed out there, too. Honestly, I don't understand this habbit of yours. I made an argument, make yours and move on. Shouting down people who disagree with you isn't any way for the technology to progress. Also: you owe me a checkout over at scipioerp.

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po00on 11 hs ago

I agree. He just cited LNDs Macaroon / TLS authentication routine as 'a problem'. *shakes head*

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madppiper 44 mins ago

The article covers various aspects of why Lightning is currently unattractive for business applications. The TLS / Macaroon bit i adressed above in specific again. What makes you think that the other bits don't matter to developers/merchants like us?

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mr_li_jr Yesterday

That's an oversimplification of how to buy Bitcoin for many people. What about KYC and verification on the exchange? What about wiring the money over from the bank?

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dalebewan 2 hs ago

And none of that should ever be in the description of how to *use* it. Acquiring bitcoin and using bitcoin are two completely separate processes, so all the OP is doing in this article is making it out to be more complex than it really is. He claims to be "just trying to be helpful", but his overall message is one of "I had problems making stuff work, so these are obviously fatal flaws and the whole technology is crap, so don't bother trying". Some of the problems he points out are real, but they're minor things that any reasonable development team would work around during implementation (and hopefully submit fixes/improvements back as open source to make it easier for others in the future). Others aren't even real problems and are totally down to his incompetence as a developer and/or failure to understand the technology.

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madppiper 45 mins ago

I think we had a discussion before over at this thread: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/a3mgbm/the\_issue\_with\_bitcoin\_in\_commerce\_applications/eb7ct2i](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/a3mgbm/the_issue_with_bitcoin_in_commerce_applications/eb7ct2i) I patiently addressed your concerns there - no need for name-calling again, yea?

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dalebewan 42 mins ago

>I think we had a discussion before over at this thread: Yes, we did. >I patiently addressed your concerns there No you didn't. You ignored nearly everything I said and continued just making nonsensical statements in a shotgun style approach so that it was impossible to highlight them all effectively without wasting a huge amount of time, so I eventually just gave up and stopped answering you. >no need for name-calling again, yea? I didn't call you any names (anyone else reading can go check the thread if they really like) and I'm not planning on doing so here either. That said, I'm also not planning on answering you anymore in this thread either because honestly I feel it'd be a waste of my time and yours.

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madppiper 29 mins ago

That's unfortunate, but alright.

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madppiper Yesterday

Hi @diydude2, and thanks for the feedback. Just a quick note though: is it really that much of a stretch? I understand that you are a fan of the technology - and hey, in a way so are we - but keep in mind that unlike you, not all our reads may have an understanding of how it works. If you want it to work for everyone, you have to be a bit more precise here... I should also mention: over the course of our work, which lasted for several months, we installed both c-lightning and LND several times. Not a single time was it easy enough for us to do within a day or two - even after we'd written down the steps. My intention is not to shit on the software, the guys are fixing something I believe is not right in the Bitcoin world, but to give some insights into what's missing for wider acceptance.

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po00on 11 hs ago

1. Download LND 2. Launch LND: > ./lnd --bitcoin.active --bitcoin.testnet --bitcoin.node=neutrino --neutrino.connect=btcd0.lightning.engineering --autopilot.active --autopilot.private --autopilot.minconfs=0 --autopilot.allocation=0.95 --rpclisten=192.168.0.4:10006 --listen=192.168.0.4:10016 --restlisten=192.168.0.4:8086 --alias poonode --profile=9098 Done.

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max0x7ba Yesterday

On step 2 your money got stuck on the exchange because your account is unverified.

4

FlipDetector Yesterday

It is ready to fail.

3

hawks5999 Yesterday

“But because of how Lightning currently is implemented, scaling the system will have its limits. Without the ability to scale, Lightning will remain unattractive for larger installations.”

But but but.... I was told LN fixed scaling. Don’t tell me I was misled.

/s

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RageTester Yesterday

Which commerce is ready for lightning network?

-Those that will succeed

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RoscoRoscoMan Yesterday

Yes. It's great.

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theartlav Yesterday

As payment performance also needs to be reliable, merchants will want to also reduce dependence on single Lightning installations and therefore distribute their own traffic to multiple servers. Clustering, running several servers redundantly, is a cornerstone strategy for successful online businesses. The problem: Lightning does not really implement the means to allow for this kind of distributed setup.

Huh? What are they talking about? I don't see what could stop you from running multiple nodes on multiple servers and load balance between them.

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cantgetitforyou redditor for a day Yesterday

For starters: How do you get the service stateless if it relies on a database backend like SQLite?

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neuralhax0r Yesterday

use a distributed/HA database such as Citus, Cassandra, DynamoDB, etc.

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madppiper Yesterday

Hi theartlav, OP here... I fear that you may have misunderstood the point I was trying to make: It doesn't matter if you can set up multiple Lightning nodes. If each lightning node is hardwired to a limited amount of business applications, it will not perform well, because it will force you to install a full bitcoin node, a lightning node each time you want to setup a business application.  Think of it like this: If you are, for example, running an ecommerce application, which processes the checkout, you would want it to share the hardware resources with as little as possible, simply because larger eCommerce applications are expensive (licenses can easily cost a hundred grant and more) and everything that makes it less productive is costly. Likewise: you want the Lightning nodes to be distributed in such a way so that if one fails, the ecommerce systems continue to function. Atm this is not possible.

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Talkless Yesterday

>because it will force you to install a full bitcoin node I believe Lnd has Neutrino support, which does not require running full node, it will work with remote peers that implement Neutrino.

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madppiper Yesterday

>I believe Lnd has Neutrino support, which does not require running full node, it will work with remote peers that implement Neutrino. That's an interesting bit of information, thanks! I thought that neutrino was just a light-weight client. So you probably still need the lightning node to get your own payment channels in place. But it is an interesting notion - and we will take a second look at it, thanks

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po00on Yesterday

Neutrino is built in to LND, so doesn't require a base Bitcoin node. There's no reason why you couldn't spin up multiple nodes and author a load balancing script to manage traffic between them. You could use separate Bitcoin wallets or have them share the same one.

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madppiper 48 mins ago

Like explained above: we always saw neutrino as a client, not as a node-like structure. If it works like a client, it won't be an option, because you can't use a GO application from inside a Java application. If it works like a server and allows us to connect from the application server to a local neutrino client via grpc, it could simplify the setup a bit, in that the neutrino client would then connect to the lightning nodes and our application server could just rely on local resources for the connection. I checked the documentation and haven't seen anything that would point me to the above, but it is worth checking out, thanks.

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Talkless Yesterday

Please note that mos popular implementation, bitcoind, does not have Neutrino implementation *yet* (it's in btcd if I recall correctly), so global Neutrino-supporting node count is limited. Not sure if it have impact on usability.

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theartlav Yesterday

I don't get it. Why would a node have to share hardware with e-commerce software or with checkout places? The nodes generate invoices and can send them whereever needed over secure channels, i.e. to a PoS terminal. The payment would then arrive from some random direction of the internet to the node, which can then inform whatever processing backend you have of a successful transaction. I don't see what kind of architecture are you talking about and what is it that is "hardwired".

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madppiper Yesterday

That's not how the implementations currently work. Basically with either LND or c-lightning you have to configure which IPs are allowed to access the Lightning nodes. LND in particular has some problems - they have a mechanism called "Macaroons", which works like browser cookies. They are generated by the Lightning instance and they must be copied over and used by the application server (ie your ecommerce store) if it wants to connect to Lightning and create invoices. Like the article points out, there is also the certificate / key issue. Lightning uses grpc for external connections, which are encrypted by TLS. Each lightning node will create its own cert and key and these too must be copied over to the application servers. Simply put: the commerce application won't know how to connect to more than one lightning node. Atm, the setup is simply not meant for this kind of use.

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po00on Yesterday

What are you talking about ??? The macaroon file is essentially encoded text that's sent as part of the API request header to LND. So, when you configure your node endpoint details on your ecommerce platform, you simply include the macaroon file as an additional parameter. It's no more complex than providing the remote node Ip, port, wallet password etc. As far as 'configuring which ips are allowed to access the node', this simply isn't the case as far as LND default behaviour is concerned. In addition, TLS/forced SSL is optional, so the CA cert may or may not be used. You describe all of the above as 'issues' when in fact they are extremely beneficial security enhancing features.

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madppiper 51 mins ago

Thanks for the feedback, to give you a bit more background on how it all connects: Our software uses grpc ([https://api.lightning.community/](https://api.lightning.community/?python#unlockwallet)) to connect to Lightning. It essentially works as a client connecting to the lightning node (we use lightning-j for all that). Unfortunately, things like the macaroon is created on the lightning node side ( \~/.lnd/data/chain/bitcoin/\*/admin.macaroon), not the client side: >\[...\] lnd uses [macaroons](https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/issues/20) for authentication to the rpc server. lncli typically looks for an admin.macaroon file in the Lnd home directory [https://dev.lightning.community/tutorial/01-lncli/](https://dev.lightning.community/tutorial/01-lncli/) So if you want to use it in context of our application, you will have to copy the macaroon file over to the application server. You can also check [https://www.lightningj.org/](https://www.lightningj.org/) for infos on what lightning-j requires for synchronous or asynchrous connections. Lightning-J largely wraps the grpc protocol, however, so I am assuming it is required regardless of how Lightning-J treats it. On the topic of TLS/SSL: both will be required by lightningj regardless of whether or not you disable it. And even on the LND side, I haven't seen the option to disable SSL. There is an option for -no-macaroons, but then grpc won't work (this has been disabled at later lnd releases it seems). But if you can point me to the disabling ssl config option, I'm sure we can give it another try and update the article accordingly.  Unfortunately, neither one of the above fixes the issue described. It would help if no macaroons were required, but either way, you will still be limited in the way multiple applications will connect to multiple LND nodes.

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CatatonicMan Yesterday

Sounds like you need an LN interface program that handles a pool of LN clients.

1

theartlav Yesterday

I see. Thanks for explaining, i wasn't aware of such scaling issues. Personally i run a proxy-like program along with my node which connects to RPC locally and interacts with the external world by itself, but i have no idea how well that would work at non-trivial scale.

1

madppiper Yesterday

Yea, truth to be told, we had the impression that many Lightning users see it from your perspective. That works for as long as you don't have to rely on the mechanics for an actual store, but in our field we unfortunately have to cook up solutions for our clients. Glad that the example was helpful :)

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RageTester Yesterday

!lntip 10

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lntipbot redditor for 3 months Yesterday

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3

seizmo redditor for 5 days Yesterday

Like the rest of BTC charlie foxtrot, Lightning is a solution in search of a problem. Its mechanics are by and large as useless for the use case its was implemented for (micro transactions) as BTC.

0

po00on 11 hs ago

Automobile is solution in search of a problem, says man heavily invested in horse buggies.

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rainano redditor for 3 months Yesterday

Lightning isn’t BTC specific. It works with any compatible cryptocurrency.

3

jaumenuez Yesterday

New account with just this comment. Worthless bcasher comment unless you proof otherwise.

6

CannedCaveman Yesterday

You forgot to put arguments with your statements.

6

AussieBitcoiner Yesterday

works fine. Set up a node and give it a go!

6

theartlav Yesterday

Seem to work beautifully for online microtransactions, however. Well enough that there is nothing even close as good as it is. What makes you think it's useless?

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cantgetitforyou redditor for a day Yesterday

If you miss the most important point of having a payment system that does not rely on intermediaries and establishes consensus in a decentralized way, it can be seen as useless.

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Phrygian1221 redditor for 3 weeks Yesterday

Right, but we can still use on chain transactions. Why does is have to be all or nothing?

2

ABitcoinAllBot Yesterday

Here is the link to the original comment thread. Or you can comment here to start a discussion. Author: madppiper

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amoanon 1 week ago

Your issue with Ledger was resolved? Your app is working now with them?

1

altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

No :( But my site (My EOS Wallet) has always worked with the current version of the Ledger app. You can find it here: https://www.altshiftdev.com

1

jadelixx 1 week ago

This discussion comes at a very unlucky moment and has signaled combined with the latest FUD for some investors to dump EOS. EOS is losing not only against USD but also ETH. And this is how markets work. We can not dictate a price, that is against economics and we can not help BP's with a dynamic inflation.

Monetization would be the better option. This will incentivise BP's to work together with projects that potentially work profitable or are already profitable.

The survey was done with good intentions but there are too less responds and this leads to misinterpretation. Also the survey invites the participants to specific answers.
How is it possible that the team sizes and costs are similar in every region of the world?

We should have a discussion how we can invite capital to the network and reach a higher price level at this moment. EOS has excellent fundamentals.

To guarantee for quality of the infrastructure we should use the Worker Proposal Fund more like a credit institution. BP's can apply for credit from the fund, but you will need to pay it back in good times and there should be tough conditions to not make it too attractive to ask for funds. It will take time to work this out though ... and most needs to be automated of course and created so that it is possible to automate.

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

>The survey was done with good intentions but there are too less responds and this leads to misinterpretation. Also the survey invites the participants to specific answers. There was 25 or so responses which I thought was pretty good... Since it requires effort and volunteering proprietary business information it's unrealistic to expert 100% participation rates but as for inviting participants to specific answers can you provide examples? >How is it possible that the team sizes and costs are similar in every region of the world? Since the geographic location wasn't a question I asked - oversight on my part - we can't know if team size scales by region. I'm sure costs do scale however, especially in regards to how much of the revenue is allocated to salaries. >This discussion comes at a very unlucky moment and has signaled combined with the latest FUD for some investors to dump EOS. Given the nature of the article and discussion I was worried I may be increasing the FUD and causing further drops but I also felt like this discussion needed to happen and the community needed to be aware of the realities the BPs are going through right now.

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jadelixx 1 week ago

> There was 25 or so responses which I thought was pretty good... Since it requires effort and volunteering proprietary business information it's unrealistic to expert 100% participation rates but as for inviting participants to specific answers can you provide examples? "How does the price of EOS affect your BP Team?" Then you set specific price categories. As if you want the asked parties to answer in your favourite direction or meet your expectations. In general its a bad idea to ask people if they want easy money (dynamic inflation versus monetarization). > How is it possible that the team sizes and costs are similar in every region of the world? > > Since the geographic location wasn't a question I asked - oversight on my part - we can't know if team size scales by region. I'm sure costs do scale however, especially in regards to how much of the revenue is allocated to salaries. Working power costs in e.g. in Philipines differ a lot from costs in US. > This discussion comes at a very unlucky moment and has signaled combined with the latest FUD for some investors to dump EOS. > > Given the nature of the article and discussion I was worried I may be increasing the FUD and causing further drops but I also felt like this discussion needed to happen and the community needed to be aware of the realities the BPs are going through right now. Ok I think the damage has been done. However I think we have reached a level where things can only get better. But why do you want BP's the center of development? Wouldnt it be better if BP's focus for now on core functions? The cheaper the price gets the more easy it is for independent developers to enter the eco system without external help.

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

>"How does the price of EOS affect your BP Team?" Then you set specific price categories. As if you want the asked parties to answer in your favourite direction or meet your expectations. In general its a bad idea to ask people if they want easy money (dynamic inflation versus monetarization). How would you have phrased this to get similar data? I presented logical categories that a business might go through during tough times, a life-cycle if you will, such as: break-even, cutbacks, layoffs and bankruptcy. Asking them to report which category applied to them at varying levels leads you to believe "easy money"? >Since the geographic location wasn't a question I asked - oversight on my part - we can't know if team size scales by region. I'm sure costs do scale however, especially in regards to how much of the revenue is allocated to salaries. > >Working power costs in e.g. in Philipines differ a lot from costs in US. You then quoted me agreeing with you about geographic location being a factor in salaries then argue with me...? Not sure if trolling? >Ok I think the damage has been done. Leaning towards trolling now. >But why do you want BP's the center of development? I don't necessarily... but they are. >The cheaper the price gets the more easy it is for independent developers to enter the ecosystem without external help. I'm an independent developer myself. The cheaper the price gets the more worried people are the ecosystem is unstable, people don't see a coin with a value of $0.0001 and think "oh gee, that looks like a healthy community, better start investing my time and efforts developing for them". 

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jadelixx 1 week ago

Easy money would be a system where people dont need to think about being more productive instead get money for free whenever they are in trouble. Dynamic inflation goes in that direction in my opinion. Monetarization is much harder to archive. I think many BP's want to go that direction and explore ways of monetarization anyways. >The cheaper the price gets the more worried people are the ecosystem is unstable, people don't see a coin with a value of $0.0001 and think "oh gee, that looks like a healthy community, better start investing my time and efforts developing for them". That is one valid problem. I would support anything that helps confidence in the EOS ecosystem. So what do you say of instead having dynamic inflation, having a credit fund or monetary fund. Money taken from the fund in bad times have to be payed back in good times with an interest rate. Interest rates would go to REX to be payed to all token holders. In that way we have an incentive to hodl EOS and at the same time we have a tool to stabilise the system? Is there a specific telegram group where this is discussed?

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 6 days ago

I like that idea a lot and it could actually make use of the bloated and unused [WPF fund](https://altshiftdev.com/account/eosio.saving/). The difficulty would be in enforcing repayments. You could deduct from BP earnings until the money has been paid back but what is likely to happen from less scrupulous teams is exit scams. ie. A BP lent money unregisters and is never seen from again... >Is there a specific telegram group where this is discussed? I guess the EOS BP channel? Not sure. 

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Hornkild 1 week ago

We need B1 to bailout now.

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cideod Token Holder 1 week ago

wow! great article and feedback about BP's. its really tough right now I would encourage BP's to really consider the dynamic inflation approach to sustain their status. No one is lambo-ing now, and its time to make business decisions that are both long lasting and rewards those who have been contributing 24/7 since launch. The BP's we have are dedicated and should have the opportunities to stay involved.....I am quite certain the community will not let them down in their efforts.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

This is pure non-sense.

If BPs get paid more to break even, then they'll sell the extra EOS and lower the price. In the end, they'll get paid the same in $ as they get now, but the EOS price will be lower. If you keep readjusting the EOS price, the price will keep getting lower. Holders lose, BPs make no extra money, and the network dies.

BPs not making money will not be solved by increasing inflation. Stop this madness

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

>This is pure non-sense. My article? You seem to be assuming I've made a point here and that I'm trying to convince you of it. I don't believe I did that. I presented the results of a survey and two possible solutions to the current situation and asked the community to vote for their opinions.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

>My article? Yes, your dynamic inflation suggestion. Transfer more wealth from holders during tough times when everyone is at a loss, and take less money when everyone is well off. It's basically taxing holders high during recession to pay the BPs. But of course you don't phrase it like that, you phrase it like this: \>Dynamic inflation would — in theory and if done right — solve all of these issues \>almost 35% of them were too worried about losing their current votes to do anything about it, even while on the verge of bankruptcy. Poor BPs! They invested in projects that didn't pay off, and now holders should be taxed for this because clearly BPs showed competence? Getting further taxed once we're 90% down from ATH without making it clear to the community that their investments will most likely (according to all economic principles) go down, it's nonsense.

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

\> They invested in projects that didn't pay off, and now holders should be taxed for this because clearly BPs showed competence? I would agree with this if we viewed EOS BPs as traditional businesses but the community has had a political undertone from the start due to the nature of voting and it's shaped these teams into different something different. Most T1 teams have forgone normal profit-seeking monetization approaches of traditional businesses in favor of large-scale community projects presented to the community in hopes of ROI in votes. The pursuit of votes and inflationary rewards as a business model has motivated far more teams to create massive open-source projects for the community, those teams - which have arguable given the most back to token holders - are now the ones with the most risk since they weren't pursuing more economically stable channels and have to scramble to monetize. You've clearly framed this all in your head to support your arguments that EOS is a pure capitalist society but it's far more nuanced than that. Further, framing their community projects as "failed investments" and "clear lack of competence" isn't fooling anyone. EOS is a different beast and your ECON 101 class that you slept through in college combined with your aggressive dogmatic tone isn't convincing me you know what you're talking about or you thought this through.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

>You've clearly framed this all in your head to support your arguments that EOS is a pure capitalist society but it's far more nuanced than that. Clearly you've framed this all in your head to shift blame and rationalise a bail out, but it's actually pretty simple. BPs pursued votes because votes is what keeps them a top BP and 75% of their reward is based on votes. It's irresponsible to overpursue votes to a degree that leaves you bankrupt as soon as the market takes a turn. By attempting a bail-out, you're basically penalising all BPs that were reasonable and saved money instead of chasing votes beyond their financial condition. Those people may have had to give up on some votes in order to act rational, but now they're punished for their rationality, while irresponsible BPs are rewarded. All this bailout does is punishing holders and rational agents in favor of wasteful BPs no matter how you try to reframe this. \>your ECON 101 class that you slept through in college Okay then tell me how I'm wrong from an economic perspective.

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

> By attempting a bail-out You're the only one screaming about bailouts and framing this as a negative now that prices are low. You'll probably also be the guy screaming about BPs earning too much when prices rise again. > you're basically penalising all BPs that were reasonable and saved money instead of chasing votes beyond their financial condition. No, I'm not. In this theoretical scenario they would also receive more funds. > Okay then tell me how I'm wrong For one, you've decided it increases inflation. It doesn't, it just shifts some of it out of the WPF, inflation rates stay the same at 5%. Secondly, you've decided to label it a "bail-out" instead of considering dynamic inflation as a double-edged sword which also keeps BP revenues from sky-rocketing during times of high-token prices. Thirdly, you've decided the current 1% inflation value for BPs is a decree from the gods instead of an arbitrary number determined in a rush to launch the network and one without much consideration behind it. Originally, it was going to be a bidding system with values between 1%-5%. With prices consistently above $10, b1 decided - with a spectacular lack of foresight I might add - that prices can never go down from here and anything over 1% was far too lucrative. Care to run the math on how much BPs would earn with 1% inflation and $50, $100 or even higher token values? No, of course not... because you've got tunnel vision and are entrenched in your current position. Your goal isn't to be convinced, it's to convince others. You've made abundantly clear so this will be my last response.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

>You'll probably also be the guy screaming about BPs earning too much when prices rise again. Funny you say that cause I can dig up posts of mine from the bull run _defending_ BPs. Only I remember how many times I got into arguments with Ethereum scammers when Vitalik the scammer was calling out EOS for high inflation when Ethereum had 15% inflation last year. How about you keep your assumptions for yourself? >No, I'm not. In this theoretical scenario they would also receive more funds. You don't understand the argument--in this theoretical scenario those BPs already suffered because now they oversaved instead of chasing votes, making their prior actions economically inefficient. >For one, you've decided it increases inflation. It doesn't, it just shifts some of it out of the WPF, inflation rates stay the same at 5%. Wrong, it increases the circulating supply of money supply, which is money that enters the market. The locked up 4% is isolated from the market and cannot be sold to suppress price. >Secondly, you've decided to label it a "bail-out" instead of considering dynamic inflation as a double-edged sword which also keeps BP revenues from sky-rocketing during times of high-token prices. I decided to label it what it objectively is, while you're trying to hide behind euphemisms. >bailout: an act of giving financial assistance to a failing business or economy to save it from collapse. Your entire blog post is based exactly on this premise. >Thirdly, you've decided the current 1% inflation value for BPs is a decree from the gods instead of an arbitrary number determined in a rush to launch the network and one without much consideration behind it. Again, you don't understand basic concepts. It's not about whether it's 1% or 2% or 5%: it's about changing it from its original value. If the inflation had been 5% from the start, the prices would be much lower low simply because there would be more supply. BPs wouldn't have more money because the inflation was 5%, do you understand this? Demand doesn't increase cause you change the number. >Your goal isn't to be convinced, it's to convince others. You've made abundantly clear so this will be my last response. Oh I'd love to be convinced by someone who knows what they're talking about. I'd love to actually learn something from wasting my time reviewing your posts after you call me out for sleeping through economics 101 and then revealing you have no idea what you're talking about. I'd love to learn something from a blog that discusses the economics of this decision objectively and doesn't appeal to emotions misunderstanding basic concepts. Unfortunately, all I get is non-sequitur, false assumptions, logic leaps, pretense, appeal to emotions, manipulation, propaganda, and someone accusing me of intellectual dishonesty simply cause their poorly thought arguments didn't convince me.

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tkosamja 1 week ago

I simply don't trust those numbers. Money some BPs spend is insane. The purpose of BPs is to operate hardware infrastructure and not go into dapp investments and other nonsense. Most of them run basic cloud server which cost them only a fraction of what they make.

I work with cloud solutions on daily basis (as SW dev) and I always cringe when I see BPs complaining how low price will "damage" their operation.

Here is simple solution. Scale down you server(s) and hire only one guy to maintain operation, not 5 of them !!! With this you will survive even if EOS sinks below 50 cents.

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amoanon 1 week ago

I agree, having some sysadmin experience it's really hard to believe those numbers...

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BitcoinRootUser 1 week ago

BPs cannot really scale down their servers without it affecting the network. BP's pay a premium for their hardware for strong single core cpu performance, large amounts of ram and strong disk performance. If you're operating on virtual machines you could scale down on the number of cpu cores you are paying for, but you cant go with cheaper cpu options without affecting the cost of cpu on the network. This is why many have opted for bare metal to reduce cpu overhead. You cannot decrease the amount of ram as the producing nodes need enough cpu to match that available on the network and the api nodes require much more to store the full chain state. You cannot reduce disk performance without effecting various aspects of reliability and performance of said nodes. The one area I see BP's cutting costs is with redundancy as many run multiple pop's with identical infrastructure. Cutting costs there opens the network to greater risks of interruptions. As far as staffing Im sure many can scale down on their sys admin budgets but it's not a 9-5 job. Someone needs to be available at all times to respond to outages. Ideally you need at least 2 admin's on a schedule to ensure one is available at all times to respond within minutes, not hours

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br0cket 1 week ago

Sample sets too small for Tier 3 and above. Wondering if BPs should be required to keep reserve funds for down cycles. EOS price could remain at these levels for 6 months or more

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

>Wondering if BPs should be required to keep reserve funds for down cycles It's called basic risk mitigation. And the punishment for being reckless is going bankrupt in said down cycle otherwise.

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

I agree. You can't force people to save money and if they don't they pay the price.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

Not unless they're bailed out by propagandists framing dynamic inflation as some sort of theoretical bulletproof while practically stealing money from holders.

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

Am I a propagandist in this scenario of yours?

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

As long as you only discuss the benefits of the solutions while conveniently leaving out the economic downsides for holders, yes.

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

The irony is you only look at the downsides.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

Someone has to balance things :) If everyone looked at the negatives, I'd happily argue for the other side. But as it is, all I see is BPs and friends pushing their agenda, so you overstate the upsides enough for me.

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GunnisonCap EOS42 - Block Producer 1 week ago

I believe that is all altShiftDev suggests - not increasing the 5% but redirecting more from the eosio.savings account (WP fund) at low prices and times of potential network stress.

I think we should all ask “what is the DPOS equivalent of the POW difficulty throttle back in these conditions?”

That was designed by Satoshi to keep the Bitcoin network functioning economically not at a loss in these conditions, and to address a systemic network risk.

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SonataSystems Secura vita, libertate et proprietate 1 week ago

Burn the 4% now, so they stop scheming 7x24 to raid that stash and blow another wad.

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GunnisonCap EOS42 - Block Producer 1 week ago

😂

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tkosamja 1 week ago

>“what is the DPOS equivalent of the POW difficulty throttle back in these conditions?” Scaling down VM servers - most of them run in Google or AWS clouds so it's easy. Hire one guy part time to check everything is working properly and that is it. With this you will not have more then 10-15k expenses.

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GunnisonCap EOS42 - Block Producer 1 week ago

Already long done where possible, let’s just feel for those who have invested so much capital into bare metal for the network and can’t do that. At least we can just delay our move. Many standbys have invested a fortune to provide capacity and redundancy to scale the network and add security.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

>I think we should all ask “what is the DPOS equivalent of the POW difficulty throttle back in these conditions?” If you understood what these concepts mean, then the answers would be obvious: the same way the miners lower the hash rate, BPs need to lower their computational and business cost during bear market.

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GunnisonCap EOS42 - Block Producer 1 week ago

Well since BPs don’t have the huge computational hashing power for DPOS, hence it is so much more scalable, the equivalent is cutting back on teams, app development - all “excess” investment in EOS. I would estimate 90%+ of all value add activities for the mainnet since launch have been by BPs investing rewards when they had excess. We will see if commercial businesses fill the void.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

\>I would estimate 90%+ of all value add activities for the mainnet since launch have been by BPs investing rewards when they had excess. Sounds like bad investments from bad businesses then. They overinvested in projects that did not pay off, and now they're out of money. Perhaps in the future they should be more careful playing the VC game in highly volatile markets? \>We will see if commercial businesses fill the void. Yeah, let's see if EOS VC $1B, Mythical Games, and private businesses can compete with what BPs created.

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GunnisonCap EOS42 - Block Producer 1 week ago

BPs are not VC’s and the value add work is almost exclusively building infrastructure to develop out EOS- the kind of thing VC’s won’t fund or touch. Try not to take pleasure in the misfortune of others, not a good look.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

VC is not a derogatory term; BPs fund small projects to achieve their goals. I'm not taking pleasure in the misfortune of others. I don't like it when others are reckless and forgo risk management, and then expect a bailout for their poor choices, especially when it will likely kill the network and everyone's investments for short term gain for corrupt BPs.

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GunnisonCap EOS42 - Block Producer 1 week ago

I didn’t say VC was a derogatory term. You appear to be suggesting BPs who have worked their asses off for 6mths reinvesting hard and trying to earn a long term place deserve to sink for their foolishness in going all in. They all get my respect. I’m fairly sure the community expected absolute max delivery - now it turns out no, we should have done nothing and pocketed the tokens as reserves. Nobody is asking for bailouts, I believe AltShiftDev is highlighting a potential systemic risk to the network - you clearly don’t agree with his suggestions.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

> deserve to sink for their foolishness in going all in. What do they deserve? A bailout? Why not print some tokens for holders because they lost money too? \> I’m fairly sure the community expected absolute max delivery - now it turns out no, we should have done nothing and pocketed the tokens as reserves. Yeah, surprise, surprise. A BP should actually be competent and take reasonable decisions that make sense long-term, and not just promise the world in an unsustainable fashion. Where are the contingency reports from BPs detailing how they'll survive if the market goes down? Or was this not a possibility. BPs operate businesses, and they should do so responsibly. \>Nobody is asking for bailouts That's exactly what an increase reward is: bailout 1. an act of giving financial assistance to a failing business or economy to save it from collapse.

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GunnisonCap EOS42 - Block Producer 1 week ago

What’s the reason why Dan Larimer originally had a 1-5% sliding pay scale planned for BPs and in EOS originally until early May? He solely got concerned while EOS was in the $14-16 range about BPs earning excessive amounts and declared that “1% is plenty “. Self evidently he made a mistake and added a crude hard value that will lead to systemic risk on the downside and allow excessive pay on the upside. It is not going to cover basic server costs below a certain level now, if the network tops even a modest value, BPs will be earning far more than needed. A network that is so crudely configured it can’t add basic income stability to the nodes running it has been misconfigured in my view. This isn’t new, several BP candidates with a finance and economics background including myself produced cost models of BPs back in April highlighting this risk and were roundly ignored. I’ll just say “told ya so” now we’re here.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

If you or any BP candidates think that increasing inflation will increase your dollar pay, you obviously know nothing about finance or economics.

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captaincryptoshow 1 week ago

The worker's proposal fund was always a questionable idea. They should take % from there and give it to BP's.

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Gooslybear 1 week ago

Super interesting data, not sure what solution is best, but definitely starts a good discussion!

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fcecin 1 week ago

The solution is pretty obvious and I have been repeating it since forever.

Block producer income should be set in USD by a referendum.

The chain needs an EOS/USD oracle to pay producers in EOS according to the current market rate.

Business revenue in shares is stupid. It's too risky. Sure, it would be great to get an 1% inflation on 1,000 EOS, but that's not fun for the system. The system would rather PAY the network in USD and get stable businesses to run it.

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tkosamja 1 week ago

>Block producer income should be set in USD by a referendum. So they would be rewarded the same no matter if the network value is going down or up ? Nice one ...

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fcecin 1 week ago

I will assume you're not being sarcastic, since a computing power provisioning contract ("cloud computing") is paid with USD literally everywhere in the world and it works.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

>Block producer income should be set in USD by a referendum. This is economically impossible. You can't sustain the same pay if the ecosystem is losing value. It means the more people sell, the more money you print, the less incentives exist to hold, the lower the EOS values go down, the more people sell, the more money you print... etc. You can't just discard basic economic principles because you're using a blockchain

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

That's basically the same idea as dynamic inflation I mentioned but with more specific details as to what to stabilize it with/to. One concern someone brought up on telegram about pegging it directly to USD, Gold or any one specific asset, is that they're all volatile, just to varying degrees. >That isn’t fair either.. let assume for example a major recession in one country vs the US. This would result in the exchange rate vs USD potentially changing substantially, and hence income. > >If adding stability of income is the goal then a basket/index of currencies seems the best option. [https://imgur.com/Z3e9Jt7](https://imgur.com/Z3e9Jt7) 

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fcecin 1 week ago

USD is sufficiently non-"volatile" for most actual businesses on the entire planet to not only make all their cost calculations but also settle them.

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hjras 1 week ago

Fantastic article and research.

I think it's become apparent that once the referendum tool is out we as a community should debate certain changes:

What if BPCs are also somewhat rewarded based on some metric (for example, having been in the top 21 for x amount of time or y amount of blocks produced)?
I think Dynamic Inflation should be based off monetarist theory (inflation as a result of supply and velocity) rather than to try to keep bps and bpcs above water

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

>rather than to try to keep bps and bpcs above water Remember dynamic inflation is a double-edged sword, it may help keep them above water now but it also keeps them from floating into the atmosphere when token values rise. >I think it's become apparent that once the referendum tool is out we as a community should debate certain changes. I wonder if we should wait for this, with today's prices all Tiers are in the bankruptcy zone. I wonder if we CAN wait for this.. 

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

>. I wonder if we CAN wait for this.. Oh please. What will happen if BPs can no longer invest in yet another gambling dapp? It's bear market. All their investments have been unsuccessful, and none of the projects created ROI for the holders. Perhaps it's time to use the money more wisely rather than throwing around their rewards and counting on the fact that holders will pay for their bad investments by just increasing inflation.

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

>none of the projects created ROI for the holders All Chintai does is provide ROI to token holders... That's literally its sole function.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

\+10% EOS/year while EOS drops 10% daily is negative ROI

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StreetTripleRider 1 week ago

Np projects created any ROI for the holders? Chintai? You seem rather uninformed.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

You seem rather slow. How will a holder make ROI on Chintai if the return is 10% EOS per year and the EOSUSD is going down 10% day? Care to calculate that ROI for holders?

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SonataSystems Secura vita, libertate et proprietate 1 week ago

Amen. Hunker down. Thin the herd. Just keep the lights on until things hopefully turn around.

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GunnisonCap EOS42 - Block Producer 1 week ago

If these token prices or lower persist for long - and I expect the $2-4 to be the new norm range until next autumn - fairly rapidly the network will have to examine whether this represents a fundamental systemic risk. There are some unproven BP candidates claiming they are happy to earn indefinitely at a loss to "share the pain" with token holders. In my view that is an irresponsible attempt to mislead on the needs of the network to try and gain votes and profit from the situation. This is a multi-billion dollar network that needs real technical expertise of the likes LaoMao, Rio, Sweden, eosDAC, Greymass provide - to name but a few, the list goes on and on and on. To retain these experts, who are a huge asset to the community in full time jobs here, the community needs to consider whether change to add downside resilience is more beneficial than risking them gradually possibly leaving for other opportunities. We have already seen EOS Meso, SaltBlock and EOS Africa unreg. Now we have lost Steve Floyd from EOS Tribe due to financial realities and him having a young family to support. This is just the start, hopefully we will see BP's prove their resilience in the months ahead.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

>This is a multi-billion dollar network that needs real technical expertise No, what you need is economics expertise. Bitcoin had and continues to have plenty of technical experts because they did things right without resorting to half-baked ideas to somehow pay those experts.

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GunnisonCap EOS42 - Block Producer 1 week ago

AltShiftDev has come up with a better baked analysis of potential issues and a solution to strengthen the network than anything else I have seen to date.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

The solution to pay you more money? I wonder why you like it so much!

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StreetTripleRider 1 week ago

To be fair, he presented multiple solutions in the article and rather unbiasly. He may favor one over the other but I never felt like his opinion was jammed down my throat...

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GunnisonCap EOS42 - Block Producer 1 week ago

This isn’t about my team, we have the technical expertise to adapt and commercialise. Many teams aren’t in that position.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

So your suggestion is to bail out those of lower expertise than you? If technical expertise is enough to adapt and commercialise, then, great, the bear market will filter out BPs of low technical expertise.

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GunnisonCap EOS42 - Block Producer 1 week ago

We have a full in house development team, we are not a typical BP. The majority of other BPs have smaller teams and add a lot of value with much more limited rewards. If you want them to be “filtered out” fair enough.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

Then it sounds like the other BPs overextended beyond their financial capabilities. Why should the token holders pay for this when they obviously didn't gain much from the BP investments as it never translated in ROI for them?

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taipalag Token Holder 1 week ago

So the solution to the BPs’ problems are inflation and price fixing?

To me this is equivalent to bailing out inefficient BPs on the back of token holders.

I’m concerned that a lot of participants in the EOS ecosystem don’t seem to have a good eduction in economics and have quite socialist opinions.

There’s a nice book those guys could read, it’s “Economics in One Lesson” by Henry Hazlitt

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blockchainant 1 week ago

I don’t follow. All blockchains including bitcoin and ethereum have inflation that adjusts with prices. The difficulty goes down in pow to react to the poor economic conditions. Why shouldn’t eos have the same? Do you just want exchanges to be BPs?

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taipalag Token Holder 1 week ago

In BTC, the difficulty adjustment algorithm hasn’t any influence on inflation, the mean production time of the blocks is 10 minutes with constant coin rewards each block, and a halvening each 4 years. What is proposed in the article and by some BPs it seems is the amount of coins rewarded fluctuating based on a fiat price fixed by committee. At least that’s how I understand it.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

\>The difficulty goes down in pow to react to the poor economic conditions. This is equivalent to BPs scaling down their computational/human resources, not to printing more money... Block reward remains the same.

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

>So the solution to the BPs’ problems are inflation and price fixing? I proposed two solutions, one being dynamic inflation, but I never mentioned price-fixing...? The other options is simply for BPs to monetize their existing services like dApps or b2b solutions. Some are also interested in using Airdrops/Airgrabs/ICOs to self-fund but the likelihood of that being successful varies quite a bit. EOSdac pulled it off but YMMV.

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taipalag Token Holder 1 week ago

If I understand your Medium article correctly, BP's would be paid more coins if the dollar value of a coin falls below a certain value and less coins if the dollar value of coins is above a certain threshold. This basically is price-fixing the BPs daily rewards in fiat. Maybe not exactly at a fixed price, but nevertheless in a certain "managed" range. As for your poll, I answered that I'd prefer *monetizing* :-)

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jimmymoreland 1 week ago

6 months in and already "too big to fail" policy suggestions coming up. How is this blockchain?

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einsturz 1 week ago

Good data. It’s clear BPs are struggling and dynamic pay makes sense (both in bear and bull markets).

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

It would definitely be a lot easier to convince BPs to vote for it now in a bear market than it would be when EOS prices are skyrocketing... I've heard some people with some pretty hardcore capitalist opinions on the matter though. i.e. "No bailouts, let them collapse and get new more resilient BPs in the higher ranks."

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

... do you actually think it is a "hardcore capitalist opinion" that you shouldn't print more money in a recession to create wealth? Or that people with no relevant qualifications should take ignorant decisions because "dynamic pay makes sense"? This bear market is not because BPs are underpaid--no matter how much you pay them, we'll still be in a bear market until crypto recovers. All you do if you raise inflation is decrease the EOS price to rebalance the market. And when the EOS price decreases, you know what you'll do? You'll dynamically match it again to increase the BP pay to offset the price decrease. And then again. There was one comment below saying it should be paid in USD. What happens when you take EOS to $1? And then to $0.5? You'll have 20% inflation eventually? Look at Bitcoin hashrate. It's going down because miners are selling and can't mine anymore. The security of the network suffers. Why don't they just increase the block reward and magically pay miners better to secure the network? Why doesn't Greece just print more money? Why don't all blockchains just create more money and get out bear market? I'm sure EOS will revolutionise centuries-old economic knowledge by increasing inflation and paying BPs more.

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

\> that you shouldn't print more money in a recession to create wealth \> You'll have 20% inflation eventually? I don't think your read the article. I didn't endorse either solution I presented but in the cast of dynamic inflation I only suggested we scale within the 5% fixed rate which already exists. Inflation is 5% hardcoded, whether you like it or not, 4% of that goes in the WPF and 1% to BPs. Dynamic inflation would just play around with those numbers within the 5% margins and would obviously require some serious research and analysis before any solutions are put into place. As I see it, the WPF is a waste, EOS could be 1-2% inflationary, all going to BPs and we would be better off. No one benefits from a locked system account with 18.5m EOS or an additional 4% inflation. 

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

>whether you like it or not, 4% of that goes in the WPF Actually if the voters don't like it, it doesn't go to any WPF at all. 

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blockchainant 1 week ago

The problem with letting good BPs fall out is that we’ll only be left with wealthy exchanges who have done zero to help eos ecology.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

This is yet another nonsense boogeyman. Who makes up those rumors? Exchanges are doing very badly as well. Volume is down significantly, and they have to scale down massively from the bull market. Exchanges are not magic institutions that just print money all the time and bathe in $$$$$

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

Exactly. Exchanges and those not fueling their revenue back into the economy through projects and community support.

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Soleone 1 week ago

Very nice article, hoping to see more of this sorts.

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altShiftDev My EOS Wallet | altShiftDev.com 1 week ago

Thanks and I think there's a lot of opportunity for follow-up surveys - if anyone wants to take a shot at it - I think I'll take a break from that and go back to MEOW :). The discussion has been primarily happening on telegram but a few of the suggestions for a follow-up were to include the geographic location of BPs & average salary costs for their team to determine the costs to run a team in various countries. Another suggested including the value of how much a BP has put back into the community.

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StreetTripleRider 1 week ago

Too bad we can't choose which one's collapse... Vote buying, corruption and cypherglass... We either save them all or let them figure it out Darwin style. Seriously though, we should vote for dynamic inflation, the risk of the good ones dying or leaving EOS for something more profitable is too dangerous.

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stop-making-accounts 1 week ago

>Too bad we can't choose which one's collapse Sure you can. Donate to the BPs you want to save. Get a smart contract to pool funds together from the community and pay BPs to do something that the community wants. Or what you actually mean is "too bad we can't create wealth out of thin air by printing money"? Yeah that sucks, but increasing block reward won't fix it. It's up to you if you want to learn this by collapsing the system while wasting efforts in a senseless avenue or by reading a book and actually working on meaningful things.

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o_Oz 4 months ago

Nope, Firefox it is folks.

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dc91 4 months ago

One thing I noticed is that Firefox and Chrome are trying to head in a direction that Brave is already in.

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o_Oz 4 months ago

I just trust Firefox more honestly. I'm not saying Brave is a bad browser, it certainly is preferable to Chrome.

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dc91 4 months ago

But Brave blocks all the scripts and trackers...If we are talking about trust, how does it fail you there?

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myfeetsmellallday 4 months ago

I am beyond confident a user will write 5 paragraphs explaining why Brave is not a great option. Here is my abridged version:

Brave doesn’t beat a hardened Firefox. Brave relies on Chromium. Brave has issues blocking scripts and trackers. Brave takes control away from the user. And BAT is concerning, we don’t want a compromise with ad companies, we want them gone.

On a positive note, it isn’t a bad option for users new to the privacy world wanting something better than most browsers out of the box.

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WobblyGobbledygook 4 months ago

Where's the best rundown of everything to do to harden Firefox, both desktop & mobile? I've got a lot of add-ons already, but I need to close holes.

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dc91 4 months ago

See, I think on the other hand a user will write 10 paragraphs on why it is a great option :) I know it's not great right now, but remember version 1.0 (mainstream version) is coming this fall and has potential to do wonderful things.

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cwood74 4 months ago

Once 1.0 comes out it should be able to compete with Firefox in terms of hardening.

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millerb7 Moderator r/cryptocurrency & Discord 6 months ago

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redyar Karma CC: 1657 6 months ago

I wont switch my browser.

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[deleted] 6 months ago

[deleted]

1

DaBigDingle Redditor for 8 months. 6 months ago

No one is paying you to use their browser. BAT is claiming to start paying to view ads. That's a huge difference.

1

[deleted] 6 months ago

[deleted]

3

DaBigDingle Redditor for 8 months. 6 months ago

> Its not a claim How are you even arguing this? Do you not understand meaning of English words? A claim is something that has yet to be proven. Since AFAIK, no one has gotten paid yet, it's still a claim regardless of how much of a certainty you think it is. >So in a sense yes users will be paid to use the browser. You're changing the meaning of words. You are paid to view ads, not use the browser. If you don't view ads and use the browser you won't get paid. That's the distinction.

0

Electrolore Redditor for 4 months. 6 months ago

I used it now for 4 weeks on my phone where it works very well, only have problems with the page of my online broker so far. But Desktop version was crap, hope this gets better! And looking forward to the rewards programm, hope its coming soon!

2

Bloodipwn 4 - 5 years account age. 250 - 500 comment karma. 6 months ago

Using the desktop version right now. Never had bugs using it.

1

LebJR1991 Positive | Karma CC: 551 LTC: 912 6 months ago

me neither

1

SonOfCrypto Redditor for 8 months. 6 months ago

"Brave blocks ads and trackers by default so you browse faster and safer. You can add ad blocking extensions to your existing browser, but it’s complicated"

It's complicated? An ape could install adblock plus in a blink...

6

Bananenschreck 3 - 4 years account age. 200 - 400 comment karma. 6 months ago

*ublock origin you're welcome

10

arkoargroup Redditor for 3 months. 6 months ago

Brave absolutely sucks for developers sadly :( i use it on my phone, but its not ready for desktop use yet if you need any kind of serious browser capabilities.

3

the1iplay Redditor for 6 months. 6 months ago

The mighty Google Empire will crush it.

2

decentralizedusernam Crypto God | CC: 161 QC 6 months ago

Would love to, as soon as they fix the fact that every time you even hint that you are beginning to scroll up, the address bar pops up like WHERE WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO!?

3

tektronic22 Karma CC: 189 6 months ago

how does it do with streaming video, performance wise? Can it stream 4k?

2

Fhelans Crypto Nerd | CC: 22 QC 6 months ago

No thanks, my attention is worth more than BAT are willing to pay per ad, and Brave is just another means to monetize your viewing habits. They claim to have worked on Brave for 4 years, and what have they accomplished? They use a preexisting platform and added an adblocker that let's through adverts they list lol.

5

Dat_is_wat_zij_zei Crypto God | CC: 66 QC | XMR: 26 QC | NANO: 23 QC 6 months ago

No one knows how much BAT will be paid per ad/time.

1

thedosequisman Crypto Nerd 6 months ago

I'm sorry and ow much is Chrome paying you for stealing all of your information? Why are you willingly just giving them your information for free? Even if you use something to protect yourself, that's great, but the steps you took to find and install that stuff may be too big of a hurdle for the average person, so Brave could help take back our privacy with an easier entry point for anyone. In addition, BAT is getting TOR tabs incredibly soon

2

DaBigDingle Redditor for 8 months. 6 months ago

> I'm sorry and ow much is Chrome paying you for stealing all of your information? With Chrome and Google in general what you get in return is a much more customized and tailored user experience. I've yet to find a search engine or something like Google Home that acts as a personal assistant. >BAT is getting TOR tabs incredibly soon Don't know why this bothered me, but it's Tor, not TOR

1

Fhelans Crypto Nerd | CC: 22 QC 6 months ago

You really think the pennys BAT will pay you is worth giving them your data? I can use extentions to hide my indenity / data and remove Adverts completely, why does anyone even need Brave. I value my time/attention more valuable than that.

2

JulesWinnfielddd Meat Popsicle 6 months ago

They never have your data, they have repeatedly said that it never leaves your device. User privacy and data control is their number one priority, re\-monetizing web content is secondary.

0

thedosequisman Crypto Nerd 6 months ago

For you to be able to hide that stuff that's great and I highly support it. However, for the average person it would be difficult for them to be aware of everything you have to do to download enough extensions just to make it as good for privacy as Brave. I really don't understand what you mean by giving all of your information to Brave, it looks like they really don't collect much data at all, if any at all. Brave would be like a stock car that gets done 80% of what you need. You can take the stock car chrome, but you have to install a lot of updates for it to improve ; updates which the average person may not have heard of in the first place, or may be too complicated for a large % of the population

0

Fhelans Crypto Nerd | CC: 22 QC 6 months ago

Downloading an extension is less time consuming and difficult than switching to an entirely new browser for the average user. Brave still collects your browsing information in order to provide you with targeted adverts, which is likely also shared with advertisers.

2

thedosequisman Crypto Nerd 6 months ago

DYOR one more user won't be missed

0

akae12 6 months ago

Needs more extensions and support in other OS (some functionalities don't work using Linux ie. mouse back/forward buttons and that is the deal breaker for me).

1

JulesWinnfielddd Meat Popsicle 6 months ago

The devs are constantly making improvements so I'd check back in 3\-6 months

0

phanofcrypto Crypto God | NANO: 182 QC | CC: 34 QC 6 months ago

Watch the David Hay review of BAT token and the Brave browser.

I’ll sit out on this one.

4

the_chilean Believe the most downvoted comments. They are alwa 6 months ago

maybe it's better tham chrome, in fact i have it installed.. but cannot live without the extensions!!

0

Fhelans Crypto Nerd | CC: 22 QC 6 months ago

It's really not. Chrome + a few extensions blows brave out the water.

4

mendel3 Crypto Expert 6 months ago

Extension support is coming soon

4

the_chilean Believe the most downvoted comments. They are alwa 6 months ago

hope it replaces chrome.. google mines so much data out of us

1

sickemsideways Karma CC: 583 Tronix: -12 6 months ago

This thread is all FUD...

1

y0um3b3dn0w 15729 karma | Karma CC: 2434 6 months ago

The truth is not FUD. If its FUD then disprove it.

8

DrAlfonsSchittler Crypto Expert | ARK: 28 QC | CC: 20 QC 6 months ago

I would, but I love Vivaldi Browser so much, it would feel like cheating.

1

mizzzikey 6 months ago

It was too buggy for me

12

DeepFriedOprah Bounty0x 6 months ago

Don’t know why ur downvoted. Brave is super buggy right now. Many sites won’t even load due to compatibility issues with lack of support for various development kits that web devs use. It’s glitchy with very few extensions and plugins and it crashes on occasion. There may be a day when Brave is a true competitor but it is very far away from that day as of now.

9

JohnnyBGrr Crypto God | CC: 33 QC 6 months ago

Bagholders.

5

riverflop 33340 karma | Karma CC: 30773 BTC: 3040 6 months ago

98 Seconds to open time.com, really? Browsing on a Pentium 1 @ 14.4k?

31

qqAzo Crypto God | CC: 77 QC | ETH: 36 QC 6 months ago

Considering the amount of errors pulled on the Time.com this is actually true on the Chrome brower. However that is just due to very very very poor coding - Brave replaces this. Just tested, took me 110K MS. For a semi complete load of the page it takes 5,6s

0

go_crypto_go Redditor for 10 months. 6 months ago

Brave for Android is awesome but Brave for desktop is a steaming pile of shit. Lot's of bugs.. Not usable as your main browser currently.

7

nopantstank 6 months ago

agreed, its my main mobile browser but i do not use it on my desktop.

1

pikabu01 Redditor for 8 months. 6 months ago

It's steadily getting better, a few month ago it was shit, now it's quite usable.

1

Dat_is_wat_zij_zei Crypto God | CC: 66 QC | XMR: 26 QC | NANO: 23 QC 6 months ago

That stat is allegedly for Chrome, not Brave.

0

Trevvv 7 - 8 years account age. 400 - 800 comment karma. 6 months ago

UI isn’t the only thing that needs to load. There are plenty of http requests/scripts that will continue to load after your page has rendered correctly. All those trackers for example. I’m no expert but that is what my best guess is.

3

iimblack Student 6 months ago

whoosh man

0

SuperNewk Crypto God | CC: 57 QC 6 months ago

It sucks chrome > brave

0

JulesWinnfielddd Meat Popsicle 6 months ago

Maybe if you like slow memory hogs that siphon all your data

0

SuperNewk Crypto God | CC: 57 QC 6 months ago

Who cares it works. No one likes the privacy b.s.

2

JulesWinnfielddd Meat Popsicle 6 months ago

False consensus bias I don't care about privacy =/= no one cares about privacy

1

SeducerProgrammer Crypto God | Trolls CC | EOS: 175 QC | XLM: 25 QC 6 months ago

Help me

How do I get paid in BAT for viewing ads?

What if I create a bot to browse & view those ads, will my bot get paid too?

17

LebJR1991 Positive | Karma CC: 551 LTC: 912 6 months ago

you can get paid per view in BAT with regiter as a publisher

1

HeartTrob Redditor for 3 months. 6 months ago

wow good point in mentioning the bots! I haven't seen anyone mention that and that would be a huge concern. Espeially in this era, these script writers find a way for everything.

3

Explodicle Crypto God | BTC: 55 QC | CC: 44 QC 6 months ago

It's "pay to surf", was a thing in the 90's.

1

Hodlington Redditor for 3 months. 6 months ago

> How do I get paid in BAT for viewing ads? No BAT for browsing with ads, no thanks.

2

Dat_is_wat_zij_zei Crypto God | CC: 66 QC | XMR: 26 QC | NANO: 23 QC 6 months ago

Brave blocks all ads natively. You'd have to manually toggle that you want to see ads for them to show up.

1

mendel3 Crypto Expert 6 months ago

You can't get paid in BAT yet, although the team is working hard on it. You will only be shown a certain amount of ads, and bots will be detected

4

SeducerProgrammer Crypto God | Trolls CC | EOS: 175 QC | XLM: 25 QC 6 months ago

Thanks, but how can BOT(s) be detected? As far as I know the only way to detect bots is that you have to click or enter words as instructions but it will reduce UX massively.

5

Dat_is_wat_zij_zei Crypto God | CC: 66 QC | XMR: 26 QC | NANO: 23 QC 6 months ago

You will have to interact with the ad in some way.

1

mendel3 Crypto Expert 6 months ago

If somebody is requesting ads from the same websites every 5 seconds, that will obviously look suspicious

1

Fhelans Crypto Nerd | CC: 22 QC 6 months ago

You could connect through a different ip every 5 seconds.

2

Raja_Rancho Crypto God | BTC: 51 QC | CC: 45 QC 6 months ago

Did you just solve the content-advertising crisis?

21

OverkillerSRB Crypto God | XMR: 129 QC | CC: 88 QC | BTC: 26 QC 6 months ago

Ungoogled Chromium with no sync, webrtc and DRM compatibility + uBlock origin, Decentraleyes, Canvas defender and Https everywhere is far better.

25

eagenda 6 months ago

Only twenty hoops to jump through. This will catch on, no doubt.

1

iuli123 Crypto God | CC: 169 QC 6 months ago

come again?

1

blog_ofsite Analyst 6 months ago

This is what I use, but add 3 more adblocker and popup blockers.

1

Mr0ldy Crypto God | CC: 251 QC | XMR: 39 QC 6 months ago

That is exactly what I use only with Firefox, Pale moon and Iridium instead of Chromium. Iridium is Chromium with additional tracking features removed, since Chromium still has google tracking built in to it. The only problem with Iridium is that it isn't updated as frequently. Anyway I still don't trust Chromium one bit. Another really cool browser with no tracking and open sourse is Pale Moon, it's based on the oldschool Firefox design and code and has the most important extensions available for it. I also prefer CanvasBlocker before Canvas defender (https://github.com/kkapsner/CanvasBlocker) but that might only be available for Firefox.

6

OverkillerSRB Crypto God | XMR: 129 QC | CC: 88 QC | BTC: 26 QC 6 months ago

I switched to ungoogled-chromium actually, it's available to install via chocolatey.

3

Mr0ldy Crypto God | CC: 251 QC | XMR: 39 QC 6 months ago

Cool, I'm going to check that out!

2

AncientLineage Crypto God | CC: 114 QC 6 months ago

Jesus what language is this? English? Is this what I should be using instead of chrome lol?

37

HubbaMaBubba Crypto God 6 months ago

They're extensions.

11

alexandernacho New to Crypto 6 months ago

Really the way to go for mass adoptation..

0

Maskimus 6 months ago

Installing an extension is easier than switching to entirely new browser for new users.

3

getsqt Crypto God | CC: 128 QC | PIVX: 34 QC 6 months ago

What about on mobile? Specifically iOS?

1

Commonboiiii878 Redditor for 11 months. 6 months ago

Last time I checked ublock origin, privacy badger, and https everywhere was recommended. Is your current setup superior?

2

gandhi_theft Crypto Expert | CC: 26 QC 6 months ago

Privacy Badger seems to do the canvas protection

1

SeducerProgrammer Crypto God | Trolls CC | EOS: 175 QC | XLM: 25 QC 6 months ago

I used AdGuard DNS & a combo of uBlock Origin + AdGuard plugin (free). I can see the result is much better than Brave

2

Sc4bbers Redditor for 5 months. 6 months ago

Brave is a project worth supporting.

0

brushtail_possum Crypto God | CC: 37 QC 6 months ago

I am using almost the same setup, didn't know about Canvas defender. Thanks for the tip.

1

DolphinGiraffe Altcoiner 6 months ago

Why block canvas?

1

OverkillerSRB Crypto God | XMR: 129 QC | CC: 88 QC | BTC: 26 QC 6 months ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canvas_fingerprinting

3

DolphinGiraffe Altcoiner 6 months ago

Thanks!

2

MattOmatic50 6 months ago

Maybe when BAT matures, but for now, I see no point.

Your browser of choice is likely something you've invested time with, there's no ways I'd ever jump ship to a browser with such low usage stats, I spend most of my time on a computer within a browser!

I need my plugins / extensions - brave is going to struggle to gain any credence.

11

Pantzzzzless Crypto God | CC: 30 QC 6 months ago

I use it when I need to use Metamask. In that aspect it works great.

1

mendel3 Crypto Expert 6 months ago

Plugins and extention support is coming in the coming months, it is already possible if you edit the Brave folder

2

Iruwen Crypto God | CC: 106 QC | BTC: 91 QC | ETH: 69 QC 6 months ago

Mobile Brave is already better than Chrome and Firefox.

25

go_crypto_go Redditor for 10 months. 6 months ago

This is true.. I've been using brave for Android as my main browser for the last 6-8 months. It's awesome at blocking content. Better than Chrome security wise.

3

PM_ME_CUTE_SM1LE 129787 karma | Karma CC: 646 6 months ago

It is not

4

jl2l Crypto God | CC: 24 QC 6 months ago

Fake news it definitely is. There's no built-in ad blocker Chrome mobile

1

JulesWinnfielddd Meat Popsicle 6 months ago

It absolutely is. I use both, and while I can't disagree that desktop has issues, mobile is fucking blazing fast.

1

PM_ME_CUTE_SM1LE 129787 karma | Karma CC: 646 6 months ago

Brave is a good mobile browser but it competes with Chrome, safari and firefox which are all insanely polished in iOS Brave is not polished enough so it is not as good

1

JulesWinnfielddd Meat Popsicle 6 months ago

I'll give you that it does lack polish, it's also only 2 years old and had a skeleton dev team its first year or so. Give them time, it will continue to improve.

1

SweetNutzJohnson Crypto Expert | BTC: 17 QC 6 months ago

Firefox Focus 👍

1

Haramburglar Altcoiner 6 months ago

I only hear bad things about the mobile Brave browser

0

Dong_Key_Hoe_Tay New to Crypto 6 months ago

No you don't.

3

Haramburglar Altcoiner 6 months ago

oh, okay, thanks, that fixed it

1

MattOmatic50 6 months ago

it's chrome under the hood - chromium. So, no, it's not better than chrome, because it effectively is chrome. Firefox - meh, many years ago, my browser of choice, but under heavy usage, it's slow.

0

redeuxx Crypto Nerd 6 months ago

The same engine doesn't make it the same especially in open source. The thing they have in common is Chromium, the open source project. If your want a modern light browser, you might as well use Edge. Chrome effectively uses the most resources especially over Firefox Quantum. Chrome resource usage is a running joke at /r/pcmasterrace.

3

gandhi_theft Crypto Expert | CC: 26 QC 6 months ago

People put resources in their computers to be used, not left "free"

0

JulesWinnfielddd Meat Popsicle 6 months ago

Until your web browser hogs 90 percent of available memory

1

gandhi_theft Crypto Expert | CC: 26 QC 6 months ago

Is that actually happening for, like, anyone at all? If you're the kind of person to have 200 tabs open and still expect a good responsive experience from your browser you need more RAM.

1

JulesWinnfielddd Meat Popsicle 6 months ago

yes, because casual pc users with low to mid range pcs are going to crack open their cases and add ram themselves, or go buy an entirely new pc because their browser sucks.

1

gandhi_theft Crypto Expert | CC: 26 QC 6 months ago

If you are a power user with that many tabs open you shouldn't have a "low to mid range pc". Specs matter otherwise we'd all still be on Pentium 1.

0

JulesWinnfielddd Meat Popsicle 6 months ago

You're not listening. All it takes is regular use on a lower end pc for vanilla chrome to bog shit down. its backwards logic to think that you should upgrade your hardware instead of your software first.

1

Iruwen Crypto God | CC: 106 QC | BTC: 91 QC | ETH: 69 QC 6 months ago

It effectively is based on Chromium, like many others.

0

cryptodirky New to Crypto | BCH critic. 6 months ago

Pass.

5

Illnevertell369 Karma CC: 969 6 months ago

Super pass

1

LebJR1991 Positive | Karma CC: 551 LTC: 912 6 months ago

why not? its a really good browser i’m impressed.

0

wokad 3 - 4 years account age. 100 - 200 comment karma. 6 months ago

chrome + ublock is 10x better than brave brave is just another chromium browser with different skin. first of all, brave refuse to block google ads. you cant call yourself an adblock browser if you refuse to block google ads on google search results. there is no compromise second of all, brave has really bad displaying issue with google spreadsheets. try to put links on your google spreadsheet and open it with brave. you will see what i mean

14

JulesWinnfielddd Meat Popsicle 6 months ago

This is an outright lie, brave blocks ALL ads and trackers by default

0

vimidia 7 months ago

Have been using Brave for a month now and can say that it is a lot faster and reliable compared to firefox, chrome, explorer. Plus just playing around with the Bat token wallet.

Works on all platforms plus android phones and blicks a lot a ad content. I see this browser becoming most used in tbe next few years. Worth downloading.

1

2

9

lawson baker : 88发 babafa - @lwsnbaker

https://t.co/mXOhJoY6Qv

0 0

Kevin Pham - @_Kevin_Pham

RT @jaykubasp: Make sure you take some time to read this https://t.co/imN8cbBd5v

3 13

Andreas M. Antonopoulos - @aantonop

RT @bquittem: 1/ Bitcoin is a decentralized super-organism made of individually replaceable cells that share aligned incentives. Some of Bitcoin's best traits are simply copied from the Fungi Kingdom. Let's explore this... Part 1: Mycelium https://t.co/cbtUK9InS9 Thread 👇

194 503

Noah Ruderman ⚡ - @devilscompiler

RT @bquittem: 1/ Bitcoin is a decentralized super-organism made of individually replaceable cells that share aligned incentives. Some of Bitcoin's best traits are simply copied from the Fungi Kingdom. Let's explore this... Part 1: Mycelium https://t.co/cbtUK9InS9 Thread 👇

131 336

Christopher Wheeler - @Stocktrader

RT @bquittem: 1/ Bitcoin is a decentralized super-organism made of individually replaceable cells that share aligned incentives. Some of Bitcoin's best traits are simply copied from the Fungi Kingdom. Let's explore this... Part 1: Mycelium https://t.co/cbtUK9InS9 Thread 👇

60 136

Jameson Lopp - @lopp

RT @bquittem: 1/ Bitcoin is a decentralized super-organism made of individually replaceable cells that share aligned incentives. Some of Bitcoin's best traits are simply copied from the Fungi Kingdom. Let's explore this... Part 1: Mycelium https://t.co/cbtUK9InS9 Thread 👇

22 39

nic carter - @nic__carter

Love a good fungus thread 🍄 https://t.co/nTWyeNsxu4

0 2

Marty Bent - @MartyBent

Read this: https://t.co/iJLgWRkagB

3 8

Dan Held - @Dan-Held

RT @bquittem: 1/ Bitcoin is a decentralized super-organism made of individually replaceable cells that share aligned incentives. Some of Bitcoin's best traits are simply copied from the Fungi Kingdom. Let's explore this... Part 1: Mycelium https://t.co/cbtUK9InS9 Thread 👇

194 503

19 4

whitslack 5 hs ago

Damn, that's some cheap electricity. Why doesn't everyone in Iran drive an electric vehicle? I mean, I get that gasoline is cheap there, but at $0.006/kWh, a Tesla Model 3 would cost only about $0.46 to drive 310 miles. At Iran's national average gasoline price of $1.10/gal, driving 310 miles in even an efficient gasoline-hybrid vehicle getting 50 miles per gallon would cost $6.82.

1

20dogs 38 mins ago

The Model 3 is an expensive vehicle.

1

DepthsOfDesp Yesterday

I am secretly hoping a rumor spreads in Iran that crypto is a Jewish conspiracy, just to see if said butters magically realise the error of their ways and beg uncle sam to rescue them

1

BTCkoning Yesterday

Funny how bitcoin is like a wealth transfer machine. While countries get into problems with the west their cheap electricity because a model to mine bitcoin and regain some strength!

2

crypto_kang Yesterday

Lots of dumb political crap in here.

But let's get real. Iran government sucks but that's a sad result of western governments directly interfering back since WW1 times. So you can understand why it's so defensive, especially considering how their neighbor got knocked over recently and destabilized, and also how the West is also closely allied with their number 1 arch enemy in the region Saudi Arabia. (Who are the real assholes that blew up the World Trade Center).

But let's not put that on the people of Iran who are stuck in the middle of these ridiculous power games, and ironically are very friendly towards the West and natural allies if anyone would ever wake the f up and realize it.

However, anyone from the West considering moving to Iran to setup shop, is a pretty terrible idea.

1. The West is not going to like you setting up anything involving freakin cryptography
1. The Iranian government is going to feel free to use you as a pawn against your own government and seize your assets at any time

Really if you're from some place like Russia, China, or some neutral country, this could work but pretty dumb idea for anyone else !

1

Bitcoin_21 redditor for 3 months Yesterday

people of r/bitcoin: this is not about religion. this is about bitcoin. Iran is a great country, and US of course (except Trump) ;-)

1

NonnoBomba Yesterday

Freedom-loving buttminers are mostly Chinese companies. I see your point but the whole "freedom" theme has been conveniently put aside long before this new development.

1

walloon5 Yesterday

Oh hilarious get the poocorn 💩

1

unbounded_recusion Yesterday

But I thought that butts are driving the adoption of clean energy! Are you telling me that they’d actually prefer to use whatever is cheapest and ignore the long term consequences.

Let me go find my pearls so that I may clutch them.

5

siconik Yesterday

Of course, instead of building actual enduring industry countries should cater to fly-by-night conman wasting energy who will incidentally leave you with unpaid bills next time their shitcoin du jour tanks.

3

SomeThinkingGuy Yesterday

Ahaha, by now electricity companies should know that "miners" are NOT credit worthy! :)

2

d3vrandom Yesterday

This was bound to happen. Mining should be done where power is cheapest.

7

archer_Chef Yesterday

What an EMORMOUS waste of power, oil and neglect for the environment. Idiot.

0

bitsteiner 4 hs ago

Iran does a lot of gas flaring due to oil exploration, because there is no other use for it (transportation and/or storage would be too expensive). Natural gas is a by-product and is just burned on site. If that is used to power Bitcoin miners, the environmental impact is zero. BTW, worldwide gas flaring wastes about 30 times the energy compared to Bitcoin mining.

2

tedprice Yesterday

Compared to...........? And is EMORMOUS a spelling mistake or some new hip HODL-word that I need to add to the ole lexicon?  

4

BTCkoning Yesterday

Those miners can certainly push out everyone else is in desperate times.

2

NovaLegion Yesterday

living > Cheap mining

yeah I value my head

7

LostPhotograph redditor for 4 weeks Yesterday

Take your islamophobic bullshit and go over to T_D. Be with your kind.

0

[deleted] Yesterday

[removed]

0

[deleted] Yesterday

[removed]

0

[deleted] Yesterday

[removed]

0

LostPhotograph redditor for 4 weeks Yesterday

I'll stay where the fuck I want. You don't have an iota of say in this. Allahu Akbar. Boo. Hahahbababanan

0

[deleted] Yesterday

[removed]

0

[deleted] 11 hs ago

[removed]

1

NovaLegion 11 hs ago

8:39 - And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism). 9:1-11 : Four-months reprieve, and, honour those who keep perfectly to accords you have made with them, and respect those who pay the subjugation tax and convert, but otherwise, "then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush". 9:29 "Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled." - Saheeh International translation. 9:38-42,9:80-91 - "Go forth in the cause of Allah" ; prefer the gains of the afterlife to fear of death in this life. Else God will punish you. The verses are talking of those who did not join war parties to attack non-believing tribal neighbours. 9:91 - the sick and the disabled need not fight as long as they are submitted to God. 9:123 - "fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you". 9:19-20, 57:10, 61:11 - Those who go and fight for Allah are greater and more worthy than those who delay it, and those who merely support the effort. Sura 47: The purpose of the whole Sura is to call Muslims to physically fight for God, and accuse those who deny that this is their call, or refuse to fight, or disbelieve that they have to, are cowardly disbelievers who God will curse. For example: 47:20-23: Those who are godly, obedient and good, will fight for Allah. Others are cowardly disbelievers that God curses. 47:25 - Satan entices those who once believed, but take dislike to certain parts of the Qur'an (i.e., the verses saying to fight). 48:29 - "Those who follow [Muhammad] are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another". Quit the bullshit. You aren't fooling anyone.

3

coinminingrig redditor for 7 weeks Yesterday

Just don’t act like a dick and you can keep your head.

0

rockkth Yesterday

The iranian shills are out in force. Fuck iran and every islamist country govern by religious freaks. Ass backwards idiots.

0

Bitcoin_21 redditor for 3 months Yesterday

a real cosmopolite

2

jaumenuez Yesterday

Fuck people like you that intentionally mix people and governments.

6

mjh808 Yesterday

What are you, a fucking Israeli shill? 

10

naturecollision Yesterday

..or a christian annoyed by zionist geopolitics ;)

3

d3vrandom Yesterday

look up where the word algorithm comes from

1

rockkth Yesterday

Babylonians used mathematics way before arabs. Egyptians 30 000 years before arabs. Islam conquered arabs and made them stall and stop every innovation for 1300 years. All the innovations in the last 1500 years came from westerners. Islam is cancer. Arabs should get free of it already and join us. Religion has no place in government. Separation of church and state is the only way for a modern society. Remember the dark ages at us, westerners. We got free of it thanks to separation of church and state. Arabs never got it. Enlightenment.

0

d3vrandom Yesterday

If you say so mate. Even your enlightenment was due to arab philosphers. Even the numeral system you use is called arabic numerals because the well traveled arabs brought it to you. Oh and iran is not arab btw. like i said look up the etymology of the word algorithm.

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rockkth Yesterday

Ha? Arabs did not do anything in 1600. What are u talking about? Islam conquered most arabs in 700 and music, mathematics, science was forbidden. Muslim hordes attacked europe for 1000 years. Arabs had nothing to do with the enlightenment, muslims are still against separation of church and state, that s why they are lead by their religious leaders in the state and have sharia as state law. U just harm arabs by siding with islam and their countries being led by religious oppressors.

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Sage1970 Yesterday

True Arabs should get rid of Islam, as should every nation get rid of every religion, but to discount the contribution of a civilization makes no sense and serves no purpose. Counter these facts if you can: 1- We still use Arabic numerals. 2- Half of the stars that are named have Arabic names. 3- Algorithm was discovered by a Muslim. 4- Algebra was discovered by an Arab. 5- Arabs discover the 0. There's more but I'll stop here. You're entitled to your opinions but... Islam started as a violent radical movement but at some point Arabs/Muslims got too rich and too cultured (as a result of contact with other civilizations) that they enjoyed reading more than fighting. Sadly that lasted for only 300 years. 

1

rockkth Yesterday

No one is discounting anything, but to defend their government today means to encourage their people s enslavement by their religious zealots who held them back for 1000 years and are holding them back today. All the stuff you wrote happend BEFORE ISLAM enslaved the arabs.

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Sage1970 Yesterday

Incorrect. It happened between 800-1100, about 150 years after Islam enslaved Arabs and others. Anyways, let's remember that this is r/Bitcoin and end this unproductive discussion about history and politics.

1

PatsStash Yesterday

Please please do some research before throwing untrue comments around.

7

GA_Thrawn Yesterday

Maybe you should do your research. Reddit has been infiltrated by pro-iran influence for quite awhile now. The most recent Reddit security post was about how they caught and banned a bunch of them but think there's WAY more still flying under the radar. Reddit rarely announces their vulnerabilities like that so the fact they came to the community for help shows the issue got so out of control they needed extra help bringing all the accounts to their attention And funny enough, most of the accounts they did catch posted heavily to /r/politics

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SolidFaiz Yesterday

Ever occurred that the ass backwards nonsense started with dick forwarded *holes from the west?

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computergroove Yesterday

Well if you read the Quran and do a simple subtraction problem ~ quaran written in 609 ad and the discovery of the americas in 1492 you'll get an 883 year difference before the west was even a thing and the quaran talks about world conquest through all kinds of deception and violence. Im sure i wont change your mind though. Propoganda is too dificult to battle with logic.

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SolidFaiz Yesterday

I don’t not a story book to separate right from wrong. What I’m implying is that the problems all have a source and that were all guilty for the circumstances today. Your retarded comments do not help with fixing the issue, it separates us further.

2

hashabc1123 redditor for 3 months Yesterday

The bible ain't much different. You're comparing an apple to a stick. Logic

1

WhiskeyTango311 Yesterday

The Bible never says to kill anyone. Just putting that out there.

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Voxbury Yesterday

You've not ever read the book, have you? Deut. chapters 13 and 17 are easy passages to point to for biblical claims of "kill the infidel." It stops being talk in Numbers 31 where the Israelites are told to kill Midianites for allegedly tempting them with the worship of other gods. This is but a specific example for killing infidels. "Crimes" the bible also demands the death penalty for include being a victim of rape, gay sex, and adultery among other ridiculous offenses. Sit down and have a read.

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hashabc1123 redditor for 3 months Yesterday

Where in the Quran does it say it's ok to kill? You haven't put anything out there. Quick! Google!

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WhiskeyTango311 Yesterday

“Kill them [unbelievers] wherever you find them… And fight them until there is no more unbelief and worship is for Allah alone” (Quran 2:191-193). “Strike off their heads and strike from them every fingertip” (Quran 8:12). “Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties; in exchange for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah, so they slay and are slain” (Quran 9:111). “Truly Allah loves those who fight in His cause in battle array…” (Quran 61:4) “The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah” (Sahih Muslim 1:33)

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hashabc1123 redditor for 3 months Yesterday

Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs: (5:32) (For that) because Cain wrongfully killed Abel (cause We decreed for the Children of Israel) in the Torah (that whosoever killeth a human being for other than man slaughter) i.e. premeditatedly (or corruption in the earth) or because of idolatry, (it shall be as if be had killed all mankind) Hell will be decreed for him for premeditatedly and wrongfully killing a human being, as though he killed all mankind, (and whoso saveth the life of one) whoever abstains from killing a person, (it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind) Paradise will be decreed for him for sparing one soul, as though he spared the lives of all mankind.

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hashabc1123 redditor for 3 months Yesterday

Now let's be real. People have killed in the name of Jesus. Catholics have waged holy wars.

0

NonEuclidFlatEarth redditor for 3 months Yesterday

Are you implying that Islam isn't a peaceful religion!?!?! **I'LL KILL YOU FOR THIS DISRESPECT!** ~ Radical Islamist, probably

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R_u_having_fun_yet Yesterday

Remember the crusades? Just saying

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computergroove Yesterday

Im curious about where everyone is getting the idea that the crusades was unprovoked lately. Steven crowser did a great piece on the crusades if the cucks at youtube havent removed it yet.

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R_u_having_fun_yet 5 hs ago

Unprovoked? Probably not History is nonstop war >if the cucks at youtube havent removed it yet Lol trumptard detected

1

computergroove 3 hs ago

Trumptard detected? Great argument.

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NonEuclidFlatEarth redditor for 3 months Yesterday

No, because they happened nearly a thousand years ago. I wasn't alive then. But I was alive over the last decade, where Islamic radicals have killed tens of thousands of people. Do you remember that?

1

romjpn Yesterday

Too bad they got weapons from the US during the cold war isn't it ?

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20171245 Yesterday

I don't think they were giving them trucks back in the cold war

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NonEuclidFlatEarth redditor for 3 months Yesterday

Yeah, the US should have known they were evil. Shame on the US for believing in their lies.

0

Crypto_To_The_Core Yesterday

Iran has vast natural gas resources and thus the electricity cost can be as low as 0.04 yuan [$0.006] per kilowatt-hour.

Why waste your country's natural gas for crypto ???

Much better things you can be doing with that cheap power. Attract / build industries that require cheap power and actually employ people and produce something useful ? Electric vehicles ? Sell it to neighboring countries so they don't need to build coal, nuclear power stations ?

What happens when the natural gas runs out ? What happens when the crypto miners flood in and drive the power up for everyone else ?

7

bobbyby Yesterday

yes, you can alway do aluminum smelting if you have too much energy

3

Tyjj889 Yesterday

Lmfaoooo, well i guess if you want to risk it

4

naturecollision Yesterday

risk what, getting bombed?

1

BlowDaTrumpet Yesterday

>Nima Dehqan, a blockchain researcher at a Tehran-based crypto startup Areatak, told CoinDesk that the firm has been meeting with foreign investors that are looking to attempt just that by mining in Iran.

>“We have had investors visiting our farms from Spain, Ukraine, Armenia, France,” he said.

There are sanctions in place against foreign investors pumping money into Iran.

8

bkorsedal Yesterday

Cause legality is a big issue with butters....

3

JeanneDOrc Yesterday

Be your own Sabrina Meng!

2

igadjeed Yesterday

Bitcoin mining is, in effect, a kind of energy arbitrage. Miners make their money when the cost of producing coins – currently 12.5 bitcoins per transaction block, plus any fees they’ve accrued – is lower than the operation of the mine itself, including electricity

It has been a while since I've read anything so obviously wrong
Wolfie Zhao knows nothing about Bitcoin

Aside from this stupidity, the whole idea of mining Bitcoin in Iran is ludicrous

Start with Iran itself, one of the most tyrannical regimes in the world. Even worse, it is a theocracy
Mine a few bitcoins, some insignificant priest declares a fatwah on Bitcoin, say good-bye to your bitcoins, your miners, and your freedom
There are sanctions by some western countries against Iran. The CFO of Huawei was recently arrested in Canada, at the request of the USA who want to extradite her for Huawei allegedly breaking sanctions against Iran, faces 20 years in a USA prison

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d3vrandom Yesterday

wow this is just so ignorant. you know nothing about iran. it is a progressive country.

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igadjeed Yesterday

It would be progressive if not for being ruled by religion Looking forward to that day

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d3vrandom Yesterday

well regardless of how you feel about the country they will get nukes and they will invest in mining bitcoin so there!

3

hisroyalnastiness Yesterday

With their enemies much more likely to end up a glass parking lot than all that

1

20171245 Yesterday

Haha suck it!

1

PatsStash Yesterday

The sanctions are because of fear and the US trying to curb growth of other super powers . The US have no respect for any other country all they want is the Power over all. Iran and China help country’s to develop not blow them up if they disagree with a deal , why do the US want change in Iran’s leadership? Because they have 60% of the worlds oil!!! Think about it

1

20171245 Yesterday

You've been a Redditor for 9 months and have just decided to post in this one thread, starting an hour ago. Goodbye shill.

0

swaggyrabbit redditor for 3 weeks Yesterday

Oh wow. I like this universe you're creating. Let's collaborate on this one.. That country has such a perfect enforcement of their laws that just by declaring "**fatwah**" automatically... every man, woman and child in Iran would follow *every* s*i*n*g*l*e* la*w* without question and **absolutely** not pay off local officials to look the other way while mining operations continue? If our orange president just declared *~~falafel~~* fatwah on brown people he wouldn't have to put up a wall, but unfortunately stable genius doesn't know magical incantations. The only magical incantation DJT knows is **Riddikulus** sanktion leviosa, by why sanctions are imposed on a country and once this happens, life in that country will cease to be worth living. No more SWIFT banking, no more Coca Cola, no more NFL sundays and more importantly no btc can now move in and out of the country. The spell is super effective!

0

igadjeed Yesterday

Good points As with all tyrannies, China and USA included, enforcement is selective, and conducted for the PR value So, if I was a rich man in Iran, able to pay the right bribes, and able to import some new Antminers, and mine on 1 cent electricity, it would be a great way to export my wealth from Iran

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swaggyrabbit redditor for 3 weeks Yesterday

This is happening everywhere. Any country that "bans" crypto is in essence just promoting mining operations to bribe local officials. Local officials make peanuts in these countries, and they will take the money and look the other way. All of btc's incentives are right.

2

poopydust redditor for 3 months Yesterday

nothing wrong with falafel

0

kinda-like-ya redditor for 3 months Yesterday

That would be an incentive to piss USA. Its revolutionary to supply not weapons but mining hardware

1

SnapshillBot Yesterday

Dear Customer although we keep over 99.5% of users' BTC deposits in secure multisig wallets, the small remaining amount in coins in our hot wallet are theoretically vulnerable to attack. We believe that our hot wallet keys might have been compromised and ask that all of our customer cease depositing cryptocurrency to old deposits addresses. We are in the process of creating a new hot wallet and will advise within the next few hours. Although this incident is unfortunate, its scale is small and will be fully absorbed by the company. Thanks a lot for your patience and comprehension. Buttfinex Team

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1

Parti_zanu Yesterday

it would be so awesome to have the great financial revolution powered by Chinese hardware and cheap Iranian electricity.

If they'll make a move, it will be a riot.

23

ABitcoinAllBot Yesterday

Here is the link to the original comment thread. Or you can comment here to start a discussion. Author: _Bitcoin21

2

13 4

wonderfulcarscent 1 day ago

Absolutely not.

1

BTC_Forever 1 day ago

Excellent idea!

2

LostPhotograph redditor for 4 weeks 1 day ago

When even your taxi driver is in on it....It's doomed.

1

One-eyed-snake 1 day ago

I would never buy bitcoin. Some people got rich off of it and a lot of people are losing their asses. Or already lost most of their ass

1

Stink-Finger 1 day ago

If someone is stupid enough to buy bitcoin, sell it to them. Then take back the bitcoin for some magic beans.

1

SomeUnicornsFly 1 day ago

> Then take back the bitcoin You dont know much about bitcoin do you

1

Stink-Finger 1 day ago

Know enough not to sink any money into it. And I also called the crash....

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SomeUnicornsFly 1 day ago

Do you realize what bitcoin's value was just a few years ago? It has steadily gone up in value. Just because it spiked for a brief moment in time doesnt mean it crashed, it just returned to the mean.

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Stink-Finger 1 day ago

You should buy some.

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SomeUnicornsFly 1 day ago

i did. Unfortunately I'm not rich enough to make any sort of meaningful investment in anything

1

Stink-Finger Yesterday

> I'm not rich enough to make any sort of meaningful investment Probably because your investment decisions to date have been of the [Bitcoin quality](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QuSuKcrAeU).

1

SomeUnicornsFly 7 hs ago

I know right? I should have just taken out a small loan for a few million dollars and bought Apple stock instead. So how many commas are in your net worth?

1

Sneakybobo redditor for 3 months 1 day ago

Soon someone will make a hole in some public restroom and sell bitcoin from there.

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millsdmb 1 day ago

nope, I used to in the gox days but now there are Undercovers. gotta be a registered money transmission business (a bank)

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Melting_Harps 1 day ago

FastBitcoins’ founder and Jenkins’s pal, Danny Brewster, says he wants his point-of-sale terminals to be adopted in retail stores. (He gave Jenkins’s own device to him pro bono.) He says he’s currently in talks about installing them in businesses which he didn’t want to name, but which he said had 20,000 locations worldwide. “It’s aimed at people interested in holding bitcoins, or for contributing to people blackballed on Patreon or PayPal.”

For those of you wondering,this is the exact cunt who ran off with Neo-Bee's funds when Cyprus was collapsing; this guy sent us back several years in the public image. We seriously had a real usecase while the entire World was watching back in 2013, and this imbecile decided to run off and buy a Bentley and let the entire thing collapse.

Fuck this guy and his irredeemable company. How is that these media outlets don't do the slightest amount of research into who these guys are and what they've done?

5

Thoomaeas 1 day ago

Holy shit, Danny Brewster is back. I held some of his shitcoin scam on Bitfunder back in the day. 2018 is the new 2014 confirmed. I thought he was in hiding after he stole 9800 BTC. Why expose himself with this new venture if he already made a fortune from his Neo-Bee scam?

1

Bitcoin_21 redditor for 3 months 1 day ago

nice find. ahhhh, the good old times!

1

GA_Thrawn 1 day ago

lol that cunt didn't set us back several years. While he might be a cunt, he didn't set us back years. Things aren't THAT vulnerable. That's cute you think that though

2

cryptocyprus 1 day ago

I think you're extremely behind in exactly what happened. Feel free to criticise me but at least get your facts straight first.

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Melting_Harps 1 day ago

Go on, tell us. Edit: Never mind, I'm not going to give you a platform to give shallow platitudes and how your new venture will make up for everything (including going dark for YEARS!). Its clear we've seen enough of you around here: >As per the last update everything with Cyprus is on hold until I free up some more funds, the registration process will be closed shortly on the redemption site (later than planned) I will then be allowing people to exchange their neobee for equity in the new entity (more details will be released as soon as I get everything launched and tested properly). The remaining NeoBee tokens will then be paid out over time as funds flow into the redemption pool from my own profits from Fastbitcoins.com and then later on anything else that is recovered from the legal processes regarding Cyprus.

1

cryptocyprus 1 day ago

There is plenty of information available, it all came out over the last 3 year's following all the court cases. DYOR on that, I'm beyond fed up of explaining it to people that are as wide of the mark as you are. As for the current state of affairs, private litigation is underway to hold those that made the false accusations against me and those that tried to blackmail me accountable. When all is complete any proceeds from that will be returned to those that backed Neo & Bee. Also to add any personal profits from fastbitcoins are being added to the pool of funds enabling those that backed Neo to benefit from that too. Have a nice day.

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reddit-already-mate redditor for 2 days 1 day ago

Which he then uses to fund FakeTaxi

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SAT0SHl redditor for 7 weeks 1 day ago

Baby steps ;-)

3

i_gotta_say 1 day ago

Inb4 "London taxi driver arrested for running a money transmission business without a licence."

22

wiscokev 1 day ago

where's your loicense for that joke m8

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AmbitiousSpeed0 redditor for 4 weeks 1 day ago

where's your loicense for that irony m8

2

krotans_kroutons 2 days ago

Adoption confirmed?? Oh wait, no, it's literally just one taxi driver.

0

ABitcoinAllBot 2 days ago

Here is the link to the original comment thread. Or you can comment here to start a discussion. Author: _statues_dietoo

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