Token Daily - Bitcoin Cash: a short-term data availability layer for ethereum?

Conceptual background: https://ethresear.ch/t/layer-2-state-schemes/5691
Summary of conceptual background: there’s a large space of quite powerful and effective scalability solutions that rely on a non-scalable computat…

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WhalePanda - @WhalePanda

@exiledsurfer @VitalikButerin https://t.co/wJ9E4kWKcy

0 0

Bram Cohen - @bramcohen

Is this a parody? This has to be a parody https://t.co/WAuu3mXgmL

0 4

James Prestwich - @_prestwich

RT @Obstropolos: Top 10 best anime crossovers https://t.co/QyOz5XPyKU

1 7

Andrew - @cyber_hokie

I’d actually be ok with this. EOS (well basically dPoS), is perfectly suited for a scalability layer, rather than a secure base layer. See Loom. https://t.co/eVRisLq0MU

1 0

Kevin Pham - @_Kevin_Pham

RT @santisiri: this idea makes sense in the context of this post on using $bch as distributed storage: https://t.co/BNcOwVO9LC. a good example to check as a reference for verifying promises with signed screenshots is @twetchapp built on $bsv (ping @coinyeezy). using proof of work for storage 👍 https://t.co/gwzPFawMfT

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Dan Held - @Dan-Held

RT @TuurDemeester: Vitalik proposes to store Ethereum blockchain data on Bitcoin Cash. Terrible idea imo: nobody uses BCash and it has the same mining algo as Bitcoin, making it extremely vulnerable to 51% attacks. https://t.co/TrBRC7vkVt

62 343

TheHODLAnalyst⚡️ - @PaytheTollman

RT @skwp: Vitalik says BCH made their storage cheap enough that ethereum could just offload data onto it and any other chain that has cheap fees. Like the oil company polluting the water cuz nobody cares and it’s free garbage disposal. Nobody saw this coming..except Satoshi in 2010. https://t.co/6XoY6MMOQI

27 176

Preston Byrne - @prestonjbyrne

RT @notgrubles: Buterin proposes using bcash to offload usage, because Ethereum can't scale and no one uses bcash. Hilarious. https://t.co/3TrlEULOTT

98 469

Donald McIntyre - @TokenHash

RT @XLdean: This can’t be real @VitalikButerin. Say it aint so. Im sure you could do more talking to the #ethereumclassic community.... https://t.co/ORQ5EwsfkS

1 14

alex van de sande (4 character handle ? me : bot) - @avsa

I guess when you're Vitalik you can shitpost your April's fool joke whenever you want! 😂 https://t.co/BdLZL8QFzR

1 1

Pontus Lindblom - @ponli137

3 31

Tuur Demeester - @TuurDemeester

Vitalik proposes to store Ethereum blockchain data on Bitcoin Cash. Terrible idea imo: nobody uses BCash and it has the same mining algo as Bitcoin, making it extremely vulnerable to 51% attacks. https://t.co/TrBRC7vkVt

3 31

Santi - @santisiri

this idea makes sense in the context of this post on using $bch as distributed storage: https://t.co/BNcOwVO9LC. a good example to check as a reference for verifying promises with signed screenshots is @twetchapp built on $bsv (ping @coinyeezy). using proof of work for storage 👍 https://t.co/gwzPFawMfT

0 4

Christopher Wheeler - @Stocktrader

Buy Bitcoin. https://t.co/5OcKOfQOb2

0 1

Marty Bent - @MartyBent

RT @notgrubles: Buterin proposes using bcash to offload usage, because Ethereum can't scale and no one uses bcash. Hilarious. https://t.co/3TrlEULOTT

2 25

Wong Joon Ian - @joonian

RT @jimmysong: Sunday Survey Part 2: ETH planning to use BCH as a garbage dump (https://t.co/H3vfFt4xEa) Who is this worse for?

2 4

Jimmy Song - @jimmysong

Sunday Survey Part 2: ETH planning to use BCH as a garbage dump (https://t.co/H3vfFt4xEa) Who is this worse for?

1 3

Francis Pouliot ⚡️ - @francispouliot_

https://t.co/1U53wCIMuj July 13th 2019 @OtsProofBot2

0 2

Pierre Rochard - @pierre_rochard

blockchain and timechain are good concepts, but we should also note the trashchain concept, where everyone dumps their negative externality on to your network, causing it to centralize around fewer and fewer nodes until its consensus rules are easily changed without user consent https://t.co/TOQvETJxFR

32 256

Ragnar Lifthrasir ⚑ - @Ragnarly

RT @notgrubles: Buterin proposes using bcash to offload usage, because Ethereum can't scale and no one uses bcash. Hilarious. https://t.co/3TrlEULOTT

9 51

TheUnamatrix DigiByte Core Member 4 months ago

This is the correct link https://ethresear.ch/t/bitcoin-cash-a-short-term-data-availability-layer-for-ethereum/5735/16

Chilling_Silence 4 months ago

Thanks 😊

AaThanthonni 4 months ago

You're welcome. Thanks for all you do for DigiByte community.

lakerz690 4 months ago

Of all blockchains whyyyyyyy BCH... 🤦‍♂️

LookInToMyEyees 4 months ago

I hear because it isn’t being used by anyone. So they are using it to load it up. Then dumping it.

rivitingone 4 months ago

I've heard of Bitcoin and cash. BCH has both things right there in the name. It must be good!

Hinnom_TX 4 months ago

BCH is relatively easy to 51% attack (at least chain re-orgs are still possible). Dash is now nearly impossible to 51% attack, because both PoW AND LLMQ PoSe consensus mechanisms must be simultaneously compromised to pull off an attack.
Dash also has instantly confirmed, instantly re-spendable transactions ( akin to avalanche but with 4 more years of use in the wild ). Dash’s new security and speed upgrades make it a compelling candidate to host this type of application

500239 4 months ago

so why hasn't it happened yet. Oh right economics incentives are working as planned and Core boys keep talking about the loch ness monster.

PauloFalcao 4 months ago

https://ethresear.ch/t/bitcoin-cash-a-short-term-data-availability-layer-for-ethereum/5735

SpacePirateM 4 months ago

Poor VB is getting hounded by Corean Maximalists now.

Core is upset that BTC can never provide a function like this.

JamieFosters 4 months ago

Moontime

btcfork 4 months ago

High data throughput (32 MB per 600 sec = 53333 bytes per sec

You can't count all that as throughput for data you intend to store on the chain.

I suppose more rigorous analysis doesn't matter all that much since it's world's away from 10MB/s, and since it's unlikely that the block size limit would remain at 32MB for too long especially if they near saturated the chain. (I say 'near' because if miners felt that regular economic transactions on BCH are greatly impacted they would probably disadvantage data transactions...)

It's hard to get a feel for what the actual added load on BCH would be as a result of that move. Would have been nice to see an estimate in the article.

Overall I can't really think of much drawback to encouraging them to use the BCH network for this, if they want to. As long as they keep in mind the risks too. Although BCH fees are low and intended to stay low, market price changes could push them up until further technical changes arrive to effect a reduction. Also, what if some hostile hashpower decides to mine BCH by dropping the ETH data txs. This could hamper their desired throughput.

Sa2shi 4 months ago

All of a sudden everyone is a layer 2 fan?

SpacePirateM 4 months ago

Using a reasonably secure Layer 1 of another blockchain as your Layer 2 is quite clever actually. Kudos if VB can pull it off.

Bitcoincashlegend Redditor for less than 30 days 4 months ago

Its awesome. More use cases for Bitcoincash are more than welcome.

ssvb1 4 months ago

I think that it's a great idea. Depending on whether BCH can live up to its scalability promises, it will either sink or float. The current high capacity & low usage situation is less than perfect.

We will also see how the miner incentives are going to be affected by huge blocks.

atericparker 4 months ago

I'd consider it very good for Bitcoin Cash, bad for Ethereum. If Ethereum scales worse than a fork of Bitcoin, which is based entirely on the original code, while Ethereum was written from the ground up years later, that is not good for Ethereum.  Why can't they simply do a block increase like Bitcoin Cash, or is there some other bottleneck?

fgiveme 4 months ago

>Why can't they simply do a block increase like Bitcoin Cash, or is there some other bottleneck? They already did. ETH gas limit mechanic is equivalent to unlimited blocksize in bitcoin, ultimately leaving ETH miners to decide the maximum "blocksize" that they want to process. Their bottlenecks are the same with Bitcoin: block propagation and the availability of non-miner-validating nodes.

ItsAConspiracy 4 months ago

The idea here is just to hold data for a layer-two solution. For example, with zkrollups you can store a value transfer in a few bytes, just indexes for source and destination addresses and an amount. Off chain, you do all the signature verification and balance checks, and contruct a cryptographic proof that everything was kosher. That proof goes on the Ethereum blockchain, which has a contract able to verify the proof. But the actual data saying who got what has to be hosted somewhere public and reliable. Using this technique, Ethereum could do 500 tx/sec, but Ethereum's already near capacity doing other stuff, and it's probably more valuable to use it for things that require contract execution. The first phase of sharding (probably in late 2020) will add 1024 shards, each doing nothing but holding data, and that would let this technique do about a quarter million value transfers per second.

SpacePirateM 4 months ago

They intend to move to POS (ETH 2.0) within a few years. As I understand this is proposed as a stop gap solution till their staking/sharding software is up and running.

ItsAConspiracy 4 months ago

POS early 2020, first phase of sharding (without contract execution) probably late 2020, and contract execution on shards 2021.

crunchywetleaves 4 months ago

Did you read the article? >In the longer term (1+ year out) the scalable data layer is going to be ethereum 2.0, because its planned 10 MB/sec data throughput is much higher than that of any existing blockchain. ETH is planned to scale amazingly well. Using BCH is just a short term bandaid fix until ETH 2.0 is ready.

Neophyte- 4 months ago

eth has 17 second block intervals with ghost protocol, so i garner that would be a large part of the problem.

OsrsNeedsF2P 4 months ago

Pretty sick, actually :) I like this

scaleToTheFuture 4 months ago

lol, why not use storJ ;) ready to unload tons of non-consensus related data, let's get dem block full boys..... ^^

Ant-n 4 months ago

> ready to unload tons of non-consensus related data Wat?

Egon_1 Bitcoin Enthusiast 4 months ago

/u/cryptochecker

cryptochecker Redditor for less than 6 months 4 months ago

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Rawlsdeep 4 months ago

Storj is not production ready yet. Storj is not a blockchain either, and can have data removed by the authority of the satellites.

FoXtheMarketMaker 4 months ago

so raiden , OMG , plasma, all useless? was a good move to spend funds on it...

very disappointed about this BCH scalability solution , and I don't think only me, the market speaks.

FaceDeer 4 months ago

Just because one scaling solution works doesn't mean other scaling solutions are useless. Often they have different characteristics and work better or worse at different *kinds* of scaling. Raiden is all about payment channels, for example, which works great when you're making lots of microtransactions with the same participants but maybe not for other sorts of uses.

zxcmnb911 4 months ago

Ethereum already has some centralized sidechains such as POA, xDAI, Loom network. Why BCH?

infernalr00t 4 months ago

This is the crypto version of USA sending garbage to 3rd world countries.

breakup7532 4 months ago

R.I.P.

gottagetminenow 4 months ago

Hmmmm, I wonder how much BCH Vitalik owns...

Stobie 4 months ago

He has disclosed his holdings recently. He does own btc and bch still. Hasn't traded them from before the split. He has far far more eth than anything else.

binarygold 4 months ago

BCHABC has a very low relative hashrate and continuously dropping, which means you only need like 2-3% of Bitcoin’s hashrate to successfully disrupt the chain like BCHSV did.

Such attacks can be on and off for a long time completely eroding trust and cost relatively little to the attacker. When the price starts falling all selfish miners leave BCH, the attack becomes even cheaper.

This situation will get worse after the halving in about 10 months or so because the fees are not supporting the miners.

In the past, attacks on BCHABC were defended by Bitmain even if it cost them a lot of money because they held 1M of BCHABC, but rumour has it they are continuously unloading it on orders from the new management, so Bitmain may not come to the rescue as readily in the future.

Also we now have BCHSV chain that has a strong interest to destroy BCH, so they would likely jump in helping any attacker to cause as much disruption as possible. Remember this is not hypothetical. It already happened once halting BCH to virtually stop transactions for two weeks.

If the data stored by Ethereum has any value there is incentive to attack BCH and indirectly short ETH.

This whole idea is pretty risky for ETH.

Perhaps LTC or even something like Doge would be a better choice as it doesn’t compete with hashrate with Bitcoin and with BCHSV.

500239 4 months ago

> BCHABC has a very low relative hashrate and continuously dropping, which means you only need like 2-3% of Bitcoin’s hashrate to successfully disrupt the chain like BCHSV did. Why don't Bitcoin Core trolls ever finish their thought? it's been 2 years now and nothing has happened. That's the part of the Boogeyman story they never go into. It's almost as if Satoshi's economic incentives are working just as expected.

binarygold 4 months ago

Just because you don't like what I'm saying, it doesn't make me a troll. It's not an argument. It's an admittance that you need to resort to emotional manipulation to make a point. It's NOT a boogeyman story. Stuff did happen. BCHSV folks attacked the chain and brought it to a halt. There were almost no transactions for a long time. Exchanges stopped deposits. There is no reason it can't happen again, is there? And when it does the price will surely not going to rise. And as the price and thus relative hashrate keeps dropping, the chances for it to happen again are increasing exponentially. I agree with you on your last sentence. Satoshi's' economic incentives are indeed working as expected. BCHABC (and all the other forks) are slowly dying off despite 2 years of deep pockets supporting it, despite shameless unfair marketing (lies), and despite dirty politics. Bitcoin and BCH started off as equals at the fork. BCH is now worth 2.8% of Bitcoin and there are no signs of stopping the devaluation further.

500239 4 months ago

> It's NOT a boogeyman story. Stuff did happen. BCHSV folks attacked the chain and brought it to a halt. Cool then you should be able to point to the blockchain at that time and show me a gap in blocks. Otherwise it's just more lies from you. I'll wait. > It's NOT a boogeyman story. so yeah let me know none of you trolls can tell me why it hasn't happened yet. **edit:** as expected it's been 24 hours and /u/binarygold replied anywhere but here. Even with a public blockchain Binarygold isn't able to show when and where the chain as halted. Just spreading more lies like a good Core boy.

WeLiveInaBubble 4 months ago

More bait for Bitcoiners

alsomahler 4 months ago

Why isn't there a proof of concept with storage on Swarm yet? Version 0.4.2 recently came out. Surely that is ready for storing the state by now.

vbuterin Just some guy 4 months ago

Swarm does not provide _consensus_ on data availability, which is critical for these schemes to work securely.

RandomCryptoNewbie 4 months ago

Only if the consensus has the same security parameters as the Ethereum chain. If I'm one girl and I agree with myself that some data exists, then technically there is consensus on that data's availability. So I don't really see why _some_ consensus that is weaker than Ethereum's is needed at all. It looks like you can just use Swarm [to the same effect](https://ethresear.ch/t/on-chain-non-interactive-data-availability-proofs/5715).

Stobie 4 months ago

This is a good example of why rent is important. If this ever went through BCH would be getting absolutely leached from this deal. One off cost for storage and free reads from other nodes doesn't make sense.

Mordan 4 months ago

i think down the road the business model is to provide a service for that data. Not everyone will be able to keep a copy of the BCH chain. By law, that service provider will have to filter illegal data such as CP

Stobie 4 months ago

You have a source for that? Sounds like a maxi claim otherwise.

Mordan 4 months ago

a long private discussion with a Bitcoin SV guy when CP was inserted in the chain. A US judge even made a ruling about it. yea maxis everywhere. maxis lol. I dev a wallet for PascalCoin

Stobie 4 months ago

So no source from bch then about full node as a service bs then. Pruning sounds far more likely.

Mordan 4 months ago

lol bs then. PascalCoin already has complete and full pruning with its superior design to both Bitcoin and Ethereum. and even with PascalCoin and its magical pruning, there is a need for a centralized service for historical txs. History is data secured by energy burnt. BCH and Ethereum are in the same boat. As for BSV sources https://www.cryptonewsz.com/bitcoin-satoshi-vision-bsv-got-illegal-child-abuse-images-embedded-by-a-user-through-the-payment-processor/7824/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19095645 i can't find the ruling online.. but anyways Judges will have to revisit such cases. What if someone stores illegal data on Ethereum? Is it all of a sudden illegal to possess its historical chain? Judge ruled that for economic nodes who are required to have the data for securing a chain of economical records, they can keep it but the illegal data cannot be made available to third parties. hence my conclusion about node as a service. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/20/child-abuse-imagery-bitcoin-blockchain-illegal-content "a moral and legal quandary around possession and the blockchain."

Stobie 4 months ago

You don't need to offload old tx when no one uses the centralised shitcoin to generate any old history. There has always been illegal images in all chains anyone cares about, it can't be prevented. Full nodes haven't changed their behaviour.

Mordan 4 months ago

>There has always been illegal images in all chains anyone cares about, it can't be prevented. Full nodes haven't changed their behaviour. right. It can't be prevented. but it is still illegal under current laws to send a block with illegal images to someone else, even more so if it can be proven in court that you knew that block had illegal images inside it.

vbuterin Just some guy 4 months ago

The schemes I'm thinking about would work equally well if default BCH nodes pruned history data after 2 months.

enutrof75 4 months ago

Sounds good. Just get u/memorydealers to agree and I think you will have a deal. Don't forget to bring jihan with you. 😂

vbuterin Just some guy 4 months ago

Why would I need to negotiate with either of them?

Dixnorkel 4 months ago

Thanks for bringing up pruning, everyone seems to forget it exists when dealing with midsize blockchains. Hope this comes to fruition

infernalr00t 4 months ago

then http://plasma.io/ was just vaporware?

Professional-Kiwi 4 months ago

This is different from what plasma does, maybe it could be used alongside plasma 😁

enutrof75 4 months ago

😉

FluffyGlass 4 months ago

Da faq?

Dixnorkel 4 months ago

He brings up a lot of really good points. Glad he is a fan of https://Memo.cash and Avalanche, I see a lot of potential in both

runningwithpencils 4 months ago

This is very stupid.

500239 4 months ago

why?

runningwithpencils 4 months ago

Bitcoin Cash is rubbish and being propped up by a handful of people. Building a dependency on such a network is insane.

SpacePirateM 4 months ago

Repeat after me: ETH is to ETC what BCH is to BTC. BCH is a valid fork of Bitcoin. Both ETH and BCH hard forked to save Ethereum and Bitcoin respectively.

500239 4 months ago

Sounds like your opinion and not something tangible. Let me guess Roger Ver created Bitcoin Cash too?

runningwithpencils 4 months ago

Roger Ver is a cartoon character as far as I'm concerned. He doesn't credibly code. What does he have to do with anything?

500239 4 months ago

The /r/bitcoin narrative is that Roger Ver created Bitcoin Cash to get rich. When in fact Roger did not support Bitcoin Cash until after SegWit2x fell through. I hear this narrative all day everyday parroted by the Core trolls. > Bitcoin Cash is rubbish and being propped up by a handful of people. Building a dependency on such a network is insane. So which handful of people are propping up BCH according to you. And how does that compare to Bitcoin? You have to understand Bitcoin was the same way when it's started and since we forked we have to start from scratch.

enutrof75 4 months ago

Yep. As well as all the other crew (roger, jihan, jiang, haipo etc). Didn't haipo yang (viabtc) write his daughter's name into the genesis block? Sounds like ownership to me.

500239 4 months ago

So if I write my name to a block do I own Bitcoin? Is that how cryptos works? Core boys are so pathetic.

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