For CA's population, CA did pretty well. Except for LA. You can't stop rich Hollywood types from doing what they want. If there are more suicides than deaths in NY, than we should have a talk about why so many Americans are so fragile compared to their grandparents that fought Nazis in Europe and the Pacific at the same time while giving up a lot of conveniences for the war effort.
>If there are more suicides than deaths in NY, than we should have a talk about why so many Americans are so fragile compared to their grandparents that fought Nazis in Europe and the Pacific at the same time while giving up a lot of conveniences for the war effort.
Or so fragile that we hide at home scared of a virus. You could make the argument either way so it's not really a great argument. The rational thing to do is what's least harmful.
Being disciplined enough to sit at home and not destroy things is the complete opposite of losing control over one's own need to survive and destroying oneself. You can't quit any harder than suicide. And this country was not built on the shoulders of quitters.
Going to the beach requires more discipline that sitting at home and not going to the beach. Yeah, so those protestors that said they need the economy to open up so they can get a haircut. That's some discipline right there.
Oh it takes a pandemic and now people care about mental health? Hold up you're telling me suicide rates have been increasing for 13 years straight and now you care? All these people talking about suicide and mental health like they cared before the pandemic are sad. Mental health in the US is ignored unless it fits your political narrative.
We need to get people back to work safely. We need to be able to test the working population of our country and people need to wear masks to protect others. If your unwilling to make a couple concessions to get the economy up and running you're dense.
Social distance and wear a mask so we can open our economy please. If you don't do this and we have another spike in cases what happens then? Even if the mortality rate is .4% like what the cdc is currently saying healthy people are seeing a 25% decrease in lung capacity after recovering. This shouldn't be political. We need actions not reactions to get this country working again.
There are countries that never shut down their economies but they took precautions to protect it's citizens. Our leaders are failing us.
Joe et al talk so much out of their ass they can't go 5 minutes without tripping over something they've just said. I can't believe he considers himself somewhat of an authority on this, yeah we know the WHO are full of shit Rogan but your no epidemiologist either.
Well he does have the money to do that. Brendan is doing a show in Arizona soon. I know we will all be packed into a small building, but I don't want to be the one guy in the crowd that he points to and says pussy.
How? It's a comedy club. Comedy clubs run on thin margins except for alcohol sales. I'd imagine they would want to seat to capacity to recoup their losses from these past months. Anyway. I'll bring a mask, but I'll probably leave it in the car. I know once Schaub calls me out, everyone else there will.
>Hold up you're telling me suicide rates have been increasing for 13 years straight and now you care?
They've basically been increasing since smartphones were invented, yeah. The financial crisis around that time, the outsourcing trend, the opiate epidemic, and rise of social media are all likely contributors.
>There are countries that never shut down their economies but they took precautions to protect it's citizens. Our leaders are failing us.
Most countries in the West pretty much told people not to wear masks. The fact that public has any trust at all in "health authorities" is kind of amazing.
>See your whole point came crashing down
Lol. No it didn't. Does your brain not work? Suicides can have increased since 2006 or so *and* spiked now because of people suddenly losing income. Do you not know that most people live paycheck-to-paycheck? Do you not know that when people in this situation lose income they are then at risk for suicide and/or substance abuse that can lead to death?
>You will keep reading comments hoping to find echos of your own thoughts.
I have a feeling you might be projecting just a little bit. ;)
Anyone that doesn't get that suicide is going to spike during the quarantine 1) doesn't think very hard and 2) has led a sheltered life.
Ummm so what is it? Is suicide increasing because people lost their income or are people making more money now off unemployment than at their previous jobs? Having a gunctioning brain is hard I know.
If anything, people are currently growing increasingly depressed because during thr lockdown, they can’t distract themselves as much from their life situations and previous mental illness (which you make very clear that they can’t afford to treat while living paycheck to paycheck in our fucking retarded Medicine for profit economy) Your point is that the quarantine is to blame. No it isn’t. It is just highlighting an already existent problem and we should address the cause not the symptoms. To blame the social distancing is like blaming the bullets in a gun used by a psycho to shoot people. The bullets arent meant for that and you know what the lockdown is meant for, or do you not think that hard?
>Is suicide increasing because people lost their income or are people making more money now off unemployment than at their previous jobs? Having a gunctioning brain is hard I know.
Yes, having a gunctioning brain is a constant challenge. ;)
I never claimed that people were "making more money now off unemployment". Why would I?
>Your point is that the quarantine is to blame. No it isn’t. It is just highlighting an already existent problem and we should address the cause not the symptoms.
We should, in a diverse country of 350+ million people, solve the immediate problem of unemployment-related suicides/overdoses by undergoing the herculean task of addressing the huge problem of people living paycheck-to-paycheck... somehow... rather than simply return to having a normal economy? Lol.
The problem is mental health. Which is affected much more by how our society is set up not just this temporary lockdown. Is that not what you are arguing? Or do you forget things if you don’t copy and paste it? How many people fall into piles of debt after being fed the lie that a college degree will net them a much higher paying job? And then they struggle to pay it back for decades? Why are we still working 40 hour weeks when we get ten times more work done than we did fifty years ago? Why are most homes two income households? There are people trying to make these changes. But people like you are so pent up on this lockdown being the sole cause of problems. You are being feed lies and misdirection so that you stay in your place and help board members and politicians grow their portfolios and retirements. Obviously the returning to “normal” is part of the process, but right now it still probably isn’t a good idea until we can be sure thousands more won’t die this year. And your claim that because suicides are rising is solely caused by sports and movie theaters being closed is a giant straw man argument. It is only part of the important data right now.
>The problem is mental health. Which is affected much more by how our society is set up not just this temporary lockdown. Is that not what you are arguing? Or do you forget things if you don’t copy and paste it?
Great that you're trying to muddy the waters with common concerns about how "society is set up", but the problem is people dying due to sudden unemployment. If lockdown significantly increases suicide rates, which would make sense given it causes sudden unemployment, then perhaps lockdowns aren't effective given they don't actually stop people from getting infected, they just slow the process down (necessary if hospitals are overburdened, but not otherwise).
>How many people fall into piles of debt after being fed the lie that a college degree will net them a much higher paying job? And then they struggle to pay it back for decades?
College is a scam, yes.
>Why are we still working 40 hour weeks when we get ten times more work done than we did fifty years ago? Why are most homes two income households? There are people trying to make these changes.
Yes, there are folks trying to suck intergenerational wealth from us all.
>But people like you are so pent up on this lockdown being the sole cause of problems.
I never said the lockdown was the "sole cause of problems" in general.
>You are being feed lies and misdirection so that you stay in your place and help board members and politicians grow their portfolios and retirements
I'm a victim of propaganda and you, apparently, are not. I see.
>your claim that because suicides are rising is solely caused by sports and movie theaters being closed is a giant straw man argument
Claiming the lockdowns only effect "sports and movie theaters" is itself a straw man argument.
You're tying yourself in knots trying to derail/deflect from the reality from being acknowledged that the lockdown is likely increasing the suicide rate.
Haha no, you are using the opinion of 600 doctors to claim the lockdown should end because suicide rates are rising. Yes, being bored and at home all day can increase depression which may lead to worse things. But I’m saying it isn’t reason enough to stop the efforts we have put in place or else why did we do it to begin with?
I then explained the various other reasons for said peoples’ depression (because that’s what you are hung up on) that were around before the lockdown even started. And you scoff at any of them being fixable. So why all of a sudden do you have a care about it now?
Do you know what a straw man argument is or are you just repeating what i said so you sound like you do? What I was doing was merely mocking you for thinking that opening up entertainment venues (the only things closed right now) will make suicidal people not commit suicide.
>being bored and at home all day can increase depression
The "depression" of being bored at home, when you're economically secure, is nothing. You've got lots of abstract bougie concern about the economy, but don't seem to really care about the reality that sudden unemployment is devastating to folks without a safety net. Doesn't sound like you've ever been poor. Lucky you.
I bet he had to strain his one cell in the brain so damn hard to come up with this analogy! I don't know how long it would take for him to return to the baseline, maybe a month or so!
Damn, it seems like a miracle to me that IT knows what a meteor is, amazing!
Let alone solid-sized! 😂
Lol you want to talk about straw man? The act of comparing suicide deaths/the flu/ literally anything else to corona virus deaths and then acting like it says something about the importance of dealing with the corona virus is textbook straw man.
Throwing up terms like “straw man” or “logical fallacy” or “cognitive dissonance” to pretend to be smart is such classic Reddit
Seems reasonable to wonder why there's suddenly a spike in suicides at that hospital. The obvious cause would be Covid-related depression, possibly due to economic hardship. Everyone knows that most folks live paycheque to paycheque so doesn't seem surprising.
The people downvoting you are full of shit, the article makes several points:
- By late March, more people had died in just one Tennessee county from suicide than had died in the entire state directly from the virus.
- A study published in early May suggested that the coronavirus could lead to at least 75,000 deaths directly brought on by anxiety from the virus, job losses, and addiction to alcohol and drugs.
- Another study conducted by Just Facts around the same time computed a broad array of scientific data showing that stress is one of the deadliest health hazards in the world and estimated that the coronavirus lockdowns will destroy 7 times as many years of human life than strict lockdowns can save.
- ..more than 600 doctors signed their names on a letter to President Trump, referring to the continued lockdowns as a “mass casualty incident” and urging him to do what he can to ensure they come to an end.
Ironically they are implying you're dismissing the facts. The craziest thing about hypocrisy is people tend to call out in others the things they exactly do. It's like the cheater in a relationship becoming paranoid their significant other is cheating.
Good points. When shelter-in-place orders started to become normalized my first thought was that this was going to screw a lock of people. It's well know than many live from paycheck to paycheck and suddenly so many people were suddenly going to end up broke and desperate. This was definitely going to end up resulting in something bad.
>The craziest thing about hypocrisy is people tend to call out in others the things they exactly do. It's like the cheater in a relationship becoming paranoid their significant other is cheating.
I'm starting to think that many on Reddit, and likely in general, don't really care about the best solution to the crisis. What they want is to be told what to think by corporate media and to not have to have this perspective challenged by anyone.
Crap source and extremely questionable headline. Annual US suicide deaths are about half what we have seen in Covid-19 deaths in less than half a year. If more people were committing suicide than than dying from Covid-19, it would be national news in every newspaper and on every channel. The fact that you had to go to a right wing rag for this "exclusive" should have been a big tip off
"we've seen a year's worth of suicide attempts in the last four weeks."
\- Dr. Michael deBoisblanc of John Muir Medical Center in Walnut Creek, California
This is literally a fact from a front line worker. Please don't tell me you don't support front line workers.
Original source: [https://abc7news.com/suicide-covid-19-coronavirus-rates-during-pandemic-death-by/6201962/](https://abc7news.com/suicide-covid-19-coronavirus-rates-during-pandemic-death-by/6201962/)
Yeah, and he is a doc talking out his ass. Anecdotal experience, even if it was honest, doesn't mean much.
Nationwide, if more people had died from suicide because of the lockdown than because of Corona, that would mean that we would have had 100,000 plus suicide deaths so far this year. We usually have less than 50,000 in an entire year. That obviously isn't happening.
Again, crap source and extremely misleading headline.
I would say that it’s not quite 6 of this and a half dozen of the other. The odds that your community had literally zero connection to an outbreak hotspot then were pretty high and they’re quite low now. Ebola had never gotten out of central Africa before the mid 19th century. This would have never gotten out of China 150 years ago. The 1918 flu spread probably mostly because we were in a world war with soldiers shipping to and fro.
In any case. Your point about your province in Canada is well taken. You’re not wrong. It’s a difficult balance of principles and “which ones worse” math.
Most of my family is either in New York and LA, or scattered to the wind in the military, and I have a job I can work remotely, so that’s certainly going to influence my perception. I drove around LA this weekend and saw an uncomfortable number of people acting like things were normal - we might just be fucked here.
I gotta give you points for rational discourse in any case. You aren’t a troll or an idiot, and I wish you the best.
I wish they would publish numbers. I wish everyone would. All I have is anecdotes from friends and colleagues in healthcare and local government. They are all saying the suicides are higher than they’ve ever seen in a similar time period. They are all saying no one will report on it because of “suicide contagion” leading to a further bump of copycat attempts.
You can dismiss me. I have no evidence to offer other than hearsay. But I know my own mental health crumpled within the first few weeks of this thing. I’m back in therapy after years of not needing it, and I’m lucky enough to have access to help and a robust support system, but many, *many* others do not.
Is it *really* so shocking to imagine that forcing people into isolation (often on top of destroying their plans for the future, losing jobs and healthcare) would have this kind of impact? I’m a lefty through and through and oppose Trump in every way, so if you do decide I’m full of crap then at least know where *my* bias is. But regardless of personal politics, as someone who has her own struggles with mental health, who has family and friends struggling with mental health and addiction, I’ve been concerned about the consequences of the SIP from the beginning. I’m ashamed of the left for being so lacking in conscience that they would dismiss any critique of these government orders as “pro-Trump”, as if our government was pure and good except for this one man. Who will advocate for the people who are killed by despair? Who dares risking their reputation by questioning any part of this? By the time we have the numbers it will be too late.
I think that we are smart enough to be worried about an increasing suicide rate and COVId. I will argue that suicide rates rising also indicates that there are deep problems in society that are being felt on a very visceral level. These fractures are being pushed into the open right now. Perhaps this is a moment to talk about loneliness and poverty and poor coping strategies and addiction, and how we can work on those things together?
Surely. I agree that this points to deeper systemic issues, but then, so does the US response to COVID-19. It was a bungle amounting to inexcusable negligence from the start, and one that a lot of people in both parties are getting rich off of. If we are going to effect actual change here we need to start holding *all* our leaders accountable and be willing to critically examine and even debate these sweeping policies without making it about team sports.
There is likely to be [50k suicides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_the_United_States) this year before this pandemic. After this, I wouldn't be surprised to see 75k or 100k total.
But the lockdowns themselves aren't likely to be the cause. The joblessness and poverty would be the cause.
New data from Sweden shows that [an economic collapse would still happen](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/30/coronavirus-sweden-economy-to-contract-as-severely-as-the-rest-of-europe.html) without stay at home orders.
The only option to 'have our cake and eat it too' would be to have followed [Taiwan's model](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-30/taiwan-dodges-worst-economic-impacts-of-virus-and-keeps-growing) and actually employed [effective contact tracing and widespread testing](https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/04/asia/taiwan-coronavirus-response-who-intl-hnk/index.html).
There is likely to be 50k suicides this year before this pandemic. After this, I wouldn't be surprised to see 75k or 100k total.
Work your numbers as 4.5k people commited suicide in Calofornia in 2019. So you wouldn't be surprised if suicide deaths went from 4.5k to 9.0k. California has 3.7k deaths from covid19.
My point is it's possible many doctors not in LA and SF may have seen more suicide deaths than covid 19 deaths. Sweden oh Swedwn has about the same population as Norrh Carolina and while North Carolina has 768 divided 19 deaths sweden has almost 4000. Go.figure they have the best healthcare system according to the experts. Again it is possible
It is possible many doctors would see more suicide deaths than covid19.
I would assume rural places without a dense population will see a significant increase of suicide, and zero COVID-19. The perception of the situation will be very different depending on where COVID-19 strikes. I'd bet this will dangerously divisive. Probably already is.
I attached an article about suicides which points to correlations with people's income and jobs. The doctors appear to be just seeing suicide cases more than covid19
Less dense areas seem to have community spread unless some asshat goes to Italy and comes back and brags to everyone about her trip. Yep she gave it to thirty or more people in my childhood city. Social distancing does work
Prevented killing less people than will end up being killed via collateral damage.
The real fallout from mass unemployment and mental health issues due to months of house arrest hasn't even started yet.
Suicide is already up significantly in the last decade, this is just another nail in the coffin. It sped up some people's decisions to commit suicide...but I doubt it (SIP and bleak world currently) was a reason or cause. There were plenty of other nails in the coffin already.
When and how are we going to hold those responsible for the massive controlled economic demolition this fake plandemic is going to happen? Honestly surprised someone mentally unstable and out of work or something hasn't gone on a rampage or anything yet.
The lack of riots, looting, etc has really surprised me. Especially in poorer countries or places with only minor outbreaks. June should be very telling. If people are going this long without money, major problems will start piling up. Sadly it just seems like part of the plan to justify stricter measures down the line.
I hope we can start talking about things like this. I find myself being attacked as a non-carer of human life for asking questions about relativity and how different scenarios might change or policy decisions