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Source: miamiherald.com ·
An appeals court ruled a Miami Beach man can be prosecuted for selling Bitcoin to an undercover detective, a decision that helps Florida law enforcement target the use of virtual currencies in unregulated deals.
Paul Sztorc - @Truthcoin
2 weeks ago
RT @kyletorpey: "A Miami Beach man can be prosecuted for selling Bitcoin to an undercover detective, an appeals court ruled on Wednesday in a decision that makes it easier for Florida law enforcement to target people who buy and sell virtual currencies in unregulated deals." https://t.co/d6ZLEjaky1
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Kyle Torpey - @kyletorpey
2 weeks ago
"A Miami Beach man can be prosecuted for selling Bitcoin to an undercover detective, an appeals court ruled on Wednesday in a decision that makes it easier for Florida law enforcement to target people who buy and sell virtual currencies in unregulated deals." https://t.co/d6ZLEjaky1
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garfipus
2 weeks ago
The article is full of hilarious quotes and statements:
Bitcoin is used to buy legitimate goods and services through websites and even in brick-and-mortar shops and restaurants.
followed by
it is up to the jury to decide whether Espinoza was guilty of money laundering — the undercover detective told him that the bitcoins were going to be used to buy credit card numbers stolen by Russian hackers.
Months later, Circuit Judge Teresa Mary Pooler agreed, saying Bitcoin was not “tangible wealth” and “cannot be hidden under a mattress like cash and gold bars.”
Correct, it can only be hidden hodled under birdbaths.
“Basically, it’s poker chips that people are willing to buy from you,” said Evans, a virtual-currency expert who was paid $3,000 in bitcoins for his testimony.
“The court is not an expert in economics; however, it is very clear, even to someone with limited knowledge in the area, that Bitcoin has a long way to go before it is the equivalent of money,” Pooler wrote in an eight-page order.
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almondicecream
2 weeks ago
I think this accurately captures absolutely everything about bitcoin today. Also, here's our maximalist hero: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/ntz6ys/picture225301720/alternates/FREE_1140/DSC03448
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SnapshillBot
2 weeks ago
Future us will thank us.
Snapshots:
- This Post - archive.org, megalodon.jp, archive.is
^(I am a bot.) ^([Info](/r/SnapshillBot) ^/ ^[Contact](/message/compose?to=\/r\/SnapshillBot))
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AC4YS-wQLGJ
2 weeks ago
“not merely selling his own personal bitcoins, he was marketing a business.”
Trading is not a crime - only when you do "business like things" such as charge a fee for the transaction. Instead of saying "I charge spot plus 6%", he could say "I want $3700 for my bitcoin" it automagically becomes a legal transaction. That's the stupid part if you ask me.
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essexbrat
2 weeks ago
>Trading is not a crime - only when you do "business like things" such as charge a fee for the transaction. Instead of saying "I charge spot plus 6%", he could say "I want $3700 for my bitcoin" it automagically becomes a legal transaction. That's the stupid part if you ask me.
Not sure I understand your logic here. Even if you are correct about "trading is not a crime" - which, based on this case, I don't think you are - surely selling at a fixed price is precisely what most businesses do? My local bureau de change doesn't charge fees, they simply make their profit on the spread of the exchange rates.
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AC4YS-wQLGJ
2 weeks ago
I'm not saying it applies to this case. Clearly the guy was making a business out of trading. What I'm saying is he was going about it wrong. If he hadn't done businessy things in trading, like "charging a fee" for trades, and simply stated what price he was willing to trade with other people, then it wouldn't have been so "businessy" and not got in trouble - that includes following other laws such as keeping it under $10,000, not layering, or reporting over $10,000 trades (thats not illegal either, you just need to file a IRS 8300 form.) source: my lawyer
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jstolfi
2 weeks ago
> only when you do "business like things" such as charge a fee for the transaction. Instead of saying "I charge spot plus 6%"
Keep believing that, and see where it will get you...
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AC4YS-wQLGJ
2 weeks ago
I've actually paid a lawyer to review the legalities of trading in my state. Keep believing your misconceptions and misunderstandings. See where that gets you, Mr $4 bitcoin man.
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jstolfi
2 weeks ago
> I've actually paid a lawyer to review the legalities of trading in my state.
Is that the lawyer who defended Espinoza on the first trial?
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AC4YS-wQLGJ
2 weeks ago
No, why? Do you think its the same thing to review laws and offer advice to clients vs attempting to change/revise history of a client so that their actions fit inside the law? You're already dumb as it it, don't make it worse.
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jstolfi
2 weeks ago
If your lawyer told you that charging 6% over market, instead of a flat fee, is not profit -- then you should call his high school and ask when did he drop out.
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AC4YS-wQLGJ
2 weeks ago
It's not about profit. It's about charging a fee. Nobody cares that you make a profit (as long as you report the income). Its about doing business like actions without a license or permit. Nobody sells or makes a trade without an expectation of personally perceived profit.
Dictionary result for fee
/fē/Submit
noun
1.
a payment made to a professional person or to a professional or public body in exchange for advice or services.
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paid_astroturfer
2 weeks ago
[https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/31/1010.100](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/31/1010.100)
>(8)*Limitation.* For the purposes of this section, the term “money services business” shall not include:
>
>(iii) A natural person who engages in an activity identified in paragraphs (ff)(1) through (ff)(5) of this section on an infrequent basis and not for gain or profit.
​
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jstolfi
2 weeks ago
> infrequent basis
If you announce your bitcoin exchange services to general public, e.g. through localbitcoins, you cannot claim "infrequent basis". That becomes a reglar business.
> not for gain or profit.
If you charge 6% over market, that is profit, duhhh.
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Papa_Ganda
2 weeks ago
Did you hear all that commotion over night? That's the sound of coin-traprenuers unplugging Bitcoin ATMs across the state.
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Crypto_To_The_Core
2 weeks ago
bitcoins are nothing more than “poker chips that people are willing to buy from you.”
Correct.
Unfortunately for Butters, he claims Bitcoin is a currency, or an asset or a store of value, and changes his mind whenever it suits him, and this is going to catch him out.
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Darxchaos
2 weeks ago
Butters love changing the goal posts. Whenever their current model doesn't work, they invent a new one.
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frankthompson
2 weeks ago
Usually poker chips can be exchanged for currency at a flat rate like... snrk... Tether.
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un-affiliated
2 weeks ago
Imagine if you wanted to cash out your poker chips at the end of the night and needed to find some other sucker to buy them before you could do so.
Or you could give them to an intermediary until they sold, but at any minute the intermediary could tell you that they disappeared, and then everyone would tell you that you were an idiot for not keeping them in your possession.
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real_actual_doctor
2 weeks ago
“Basically, it’s poker chips that people are willing to buy from you,” said Evans, a virtual-currency expert who was paid $3,000 in bitcoins for his testimony.
​
Is this a parody site?
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Ralphadayus
2 weeks ago
I've not played with chips that lose their value dramatically as you play.
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HopeFox
2 weeks ago
“The anarcho-libertarians living in their mother’s basements are undoubtedly tearing their hair out tonight, but the reality is the appeals court has kicked this back to the jury,” Evans said. “The juries are the triers of the fact.”
- This guy's defence attorney. At least he's under no illusions.
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eigenman
2 weeks ago
Not quite but was still a witness for the defense lol.
>Charles Evans, a Barry University economics professor who served as a defense witness, disagrees with the decision but said it shows the “virtual currency industry is finally starting to grow up.”
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SnapshillBot
2 weeks ago
In a world slipping more and more into chaos and uncertainty, Bitcoin seems to me like the last solid rock defeating all the attacks.
Snapshots:
- This Post - archive.org, megalodon.jp, archive.is
^(I am a bot.) ^([Info](/r/SnapshillBot) ^/ ^[Contact](/message/compose?to=\/r\/SnapshillBot))
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caffeine93
2 weeks ago
oh Snappy, one could argue that it is exactly Bitcoin that is causing chaos and (economic) uncertainty in butters' lives
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