Grid+ leverages the Ethereum blockchain to give consumers direct access to wholesale energy markets. This allows customers to respond intelligently, which increases efficiency, decreases cost, and helps move us all to a cleaner future.
As a potential investor, I have to ask: how much demand will there really be for GRID tokens? You mentioned fee reductions is a function of amount and length of stake. Okay. Straightforward. So companies or individuals that purchase GRID later will have less fee reduction.
I am not trying to sound like I'm looking for an exponential gain, I'm not. What I'm wondering is it seems like the price cap is limited by the break even point of the fee reduction algorithm.
I suspect there to be a huge surge of demand, followed by relatively none as all the smart companies and consumers will plan to hold their GRID tokens until the price plummets down once individuals realize selling grid is now more profitable than holding it.
Is my logic flawed, in that a cyclic volatility will not actually occur??
Wow, really cool project, I love the implications :)
How will you get around regulation as a financial intermediary when you allow deposits to be paid, and you take "responsibillty" for keeping them save? (I know of course that they are saved on the blockchain, but regulator perception matters).
And linked to question one, what about KYC? Will you tackle it when onboarding clients?
Thanks for the interest. The deposits are secured in a bank account, just as they are for any other business. Yes, all utility companies require KYC to enroll and serve customers - we will be no different. Only Grid+ customers will be able to redeem BOLT.
I had a veRy similar idea at work a few weeks ago, to a tee. You can even see me asking about tethering the token to the local currency in my post history somewhere. Though my model would have also allowed users to mine the bolt equivalent via their heat pump/solar panel/CHP whatever. I even started learning java
"The BOLT token is a stable-coin, redeemable by Grid+ customers for $1 worth of energy and backed by USD deposits. The GRID token allows Grid+ members to waive fees both on the Grid+ platform and when using the Grid+ Raiden hub."
Surely there was some other way than to use yet another stablecoin pegged to the dollar. What is it with ConsenSys and these faux stablecoins (WIZ being the other one). These implementations greatly increase friction, not reduce, so its a shame to keep seeing these pop up. (Might as well just combine with the Gnosis stablecoin). And the GRID token just seems to be rent-seeking. That's not exactly open permissionless innovation AFAICT.
Anyways, other than that, cool project, and good luck. When is the ICO?
We believe stablecoins are necessary for mass adoption of Ethereum. The WIZ token is a a derivative product, similar to other attempts at stablecoins, such as ones by Maker and Stbl. We think these are interesting projects, but not as scalable as we would like.
BOLT is fully backed by USD deposits.
We are targeting Q3 for the token sale. We will release more details in the coming month or two.
I would like to congratulate the team. This is one of the few interesting projects I believe in. Was the first one to follow you on twitter, since Consensys and Andrews tweeted it, and well, I am subscribed for their tweets.
I only have one recommendation, tip, or call it however you want - please, organize the ICO properly. Everything has been a mess, caused by whales and spammed network. Your project is hyped enough.
OmiseGo, did a very good ICO, with KYC via BitcoinSuisse. Minimum 5k, max 100k usd per person. ICOAGE handeled smaller participants (4M for them in total). Yes, it did go slower, but it was neat and stress free.
P.S. Im sorry i dont believe in each and every project. Everything is relative. I believe projects similar to Grid, and everything related to payment has future. A decentralized wh*rehouse doesnt.
The token sale is for GRID tokens, which may be staked (i.e. locked-up) by Grid+ customers in exchange for wholesale energy prices in perpetuity.
The BOLT is a stable-coin and won't be sold in the token sale.
Not quite. The demand for GRID tokens is a function of the number of Grid+ customers (i.e. the number of people who are buying their household electricity from one of our utilities). So more customers = more demand.
GRID tokens will also be used in our Raiden hub. This is a significant part of our business model. As we get more Grid+ customers who pay us in BOLT (our stable-coin), we have more USD-stable-coin liquidity to put into our Raiden hub. GRID holders get priority for that liquidity and don't have to pay transaction fees inside the hub if they stake their GRID. We want to be a center of commerce for stable-coin liquidity on the Raiden network and we see this as a huge driver for Ethereum mass adoption overall.
I'm too lazy to read a 60page whitepaper so I'll ask straight forward: Are you guys planning an ICO? If yes, will you have a limited cap? what's the puropse of your token? Are you working together with companies in the energy sector?
> Are you guys planning an ICO? If yes, will you have a limited cap?
Yes and yes.
> what's the puropse of your token?
The GRID token will serve to reduce electricity bills for Grid+ customers when locked up in a process called "staking". They will also serve to waive fees in our Raiden hub when locked up via a similar mechanism.
This is outlined in our Tokens section, which starts on page 37. If you don't want to read a 60 page paper, you might still enjoy reading the Tokens section to learn how we will enable fiat-backed stable-coin commerce via a Raiden hub with a large amount of liquidity.
> Are you working together with companies in the energy sector?
Yes, we've worked with multiple Fortune 50 companies in the Energy space.
Are you guys planning an ICO? If yes, will you have a limited cap?
Yes and yes.
More details please :)
by the way, I can tell you guys, that I'd definitely wait for the right moment to start with your ICO. Many people (including me) are severely pissed at all those ICOs and their greed. Just sayin ;)
We'll release token sale details when we get closer to launch. We have all been in the Ethereum ecosystem for a long time and want to see it succeed - whatever token sale cap we decide on will be justified with financial models.
Alex from the Grid+ team here. Happy to answer any questions.
tophertroniic3 - 4 years account age. 200 - 400 comment karma.1 year ago
This project to me is the summary and hopeful realization of what Ethereum is [best positioned to accomplish] within the near future, and [addresses the reasons] why I became interested in the first place. I'm a little speechless.
Are you working with any existing hardware wallet producers for putting together the agent? It might eventually need a sweet name at launch.
Do you know of any other projects attempting to implement a stable coin at this kind of scale? Is the idea to keep BOLT contained within your project until Phase 2? I can see how this might make sense, especially if there are paying customers dependent on the system.
This is incredibly exciting. I will be following intently.
> Are you working with any existing hardware wallet producers for putting together the agent?
We have had some conversations with Universal Devices, but as of now we are developing internally. For now, we're just focusing on shipping 5000 devices by Q2 2018, which means we can just use a simple system-on-a-chip (e.g. raspberry pi) with a hardware enclave. Longer term we need our parts to be sufficiently commoditized and our production sufficiently scalable so this design will change.
> It might eventually need a sweet name at launch.
I like this idea. Join our slack and start a channel called #agent-name-brainstorm. I'll pop in and throw some submissions in.
> Do you know of any other projects attempting to implement a stable coin at this kind of scale?
> Is the idea to keep BOLT contained within your project until Phase 2?
Yes. We want lots of BOLT so that we can have sufficient liquidity to open a Raiden hub. We want to be a bustling center of commerce on the Raiden network and we think a USD-backed stable-coin is the best way to achieve that at scale.
tophertroniic3 - 4 years account age. 200 - 400 comment karma.1 year ago
Wishing you the best. I just found the r/ethereum post and read those comments too. I'm not sure that reddit appreciates the scale and clarity of the road map (yet), or just how this could fit into the ecosystem as a whole. I mean... creating a retail utility and aggregating service deposits... and BOLT runs on continuous subscription-type payments and churn. Wow, I like everything about it.
Hi Alex, congrats on finishing the Grid+ whitepaper. I work for an energy retailer myself and have been following this project with much interest. I think the whitepaper describes the current energy market very well (especially the 'historically slow to adopt new technology' part, hah).
Some questions I have after reading it:
- How will the price that the customer pays be determined?
If based on the real-time market, will the volatility of the price not be a problem, with swings between +300 and -300 $/MWh being quite common? Also, the real-time market tends to be more expensive on average than the day-ahead market, so you might lose your price advantage to a retailer that bills on day-ahead rates.
If based on the day-ahead market, how would your demand be forecasted? Would the Grid+ device do that for you? What if it forecasted too much demand and it has to sell back to the grid at a disadvantageous rate, will the customer pay for the incorrect forecast? Or will Grid+ take on all associated costs, in return for a fee?
If a combination of the two markets, wouldn't things get very complicated, with each customer having an unique price (weighted average of the two) every 15 minutes? How would a customer check whether his Grid+ device has calculated his price correctly?
I can't see regulators being very happy with this, as this makes the pricing very untransparent. Also, the costs are deducted before the customer has a chance to verify them, which is usually not accepted.
- How will you get 5000+ customers within a year?
Will you work together with an existing retailer, or pay significant marketing costs to acquire the customers? In my experience, the size of the market willing to post a deposit for a complicated product is quite small, even is the price is substantially lower (which you cannot guarantee, given the volatility of electricity prices). To get that many customers within a year seems ambitious to me.
Note that overall, I think this a promising proposal. The issues I mention can probably be solved, I'm just interested in how you would tackle them.
Zaffin, this is Karl. If you read the section regarding the agent and energy purchases you will note that the agent will be able to choose to purchase energy out of both RT markets and day ahead markets. In terms of volatility, this is not really an issue but is normally brought up by incumbent utilities attempting to justify their 100% markup on costs. The volatility will not impact prices in a meaningful way compared to the lower costs paid by the consumer. There is a great graph from EIA which illustrates how the "volatility concern" falls apart. https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/update/wholesale_markets.php
In terms of the cost model it is very complicated but the short form is as follows. The customer will be charged for the rate at which the agent purchases the energy out of the wholesale markets plus the a fee for distribution plus a markup. There will additionally be recurring costs such as a metering fee, but those are paid per period rather than per usage.
So you could have quite a smart algorithm.
* Purchase day ahead power based on predicted usage. (Learn consumption patterns including weather and DOW, DOY, seasonality)
* Purchase or sell excess on day spot.
Great questions. Before answering, I'd like to invite you to join our slack and provide more feedback if you have it. We really appreciate comments like these.
> How will the price that the customer pays be determined?
Since we have access to both markets, we intend to use them both. As you've mentioned, day ahead is often cheaper, though as I'm sure you're aware this is not always the case (see Figure 9 of our whitepaper).
The short answer is that we haven't finished the design of our pricing algorithm. Karl Kreder is our resident energy expert - he has just recently finished his PhD on battery-material storage capabilities and is working on this problem right now. We also have Claudia Pop, a PhD student studying DERs, working on related research (usage simulations). It's going to take some time to perfect an algorithm and it will be hard to do that without live data so I suspect we may realistically need to subsidize energy for our first 100-200 customers for a few months (a small price to pay for an efficient algorithm). All I can say right now is that we're fully aware of these concerns and I believe we have the in-house technical capability to get solve them.
**Edit from Karl:** the magnitude of the volatility described is actually much lower than you would think. This argument gets brought up a lot, but I'm really not too concerned. Our thesis is that the overall savings vastly outweigh any volatility swings.
> How will you get 5000+ customers within a year?
This is actually a great question since, as you've pointed out, the number of potential customers in any given market is somewhat unknown. I'll be honest and say that this is the assumption we are least comfortable about right now. We believe that we can compel people to switch by offering dramatically lower prices, but obviously this model is untested. We fully expect our early customers will cost quite a lot to acquire and that's just the way it often goes with starting businesses. With that said, once we establish a brand we expect the cost per customer will decrease dramatically because our prices will speak for themselves.
Well yeah, if it wasn't, everyone would just buy on the real-time market. As mentioned in the whitepaper, costs can be reduced by knowing in advance what the electricity demand will be. Unexpected demand will generally cost more.
Hi Alex. First I want to say this is a genius approach, aligning with the energy industry. Especially the growing renewables space which is creating a growth period in decentralization of energy production. I think this idea is incredible and if it works the knock-on effects of bringing Ethereum to the masses could be tremendous. So, thank you!
I didn't read the whitepaper in full detail so apologies if this is already in there - but are there any plans to include electric car recharging stations in the mix? These are a relatively new thing but with companies like Volvo announcing their electric car initiative, Tesla releasing the Model 3, France declaring all cars will be electric by a specific date, etc, I think the writing is on the wall that this segment of the industry is only going to continue to grow. Seems like a good place to position Grid+.
Thanks for the support!
To answer your question, there are several companies in the space working on connected-car projects. One of the large energy companies we worked with is considering this for the next phase of our (ConsenSys') engagement. While this it outside the immediate scope of Grid+, we do discuss integrating third party APIs into the agent's system in the whitepaper. This would come later in on in the roadmap and would allow your agent to buy and sell electricity using both your home battery and your car battery (when it is hooked into the charging pole) as storage.
I got one... Ok several...
I know it says ConsenSys in the title, but what role do they play in this? Is it more advisory or head on development?
This device looks like a pretty version of the Transactive Grid thing from awhile back, is this essentially the same thing or a more streamlined version of it?
As for barriers, I think one area that really needs to be streamlined is the purchase of crypto/tokens for the average Joe. I guess what I'm trying to ask is, are there plans to make this as easy as buying an iTunes track?
Great questions - thanks.
> I know it says ConsenSys in the title, but what role do they play in this? Is it more advisory or head on development?
All Grid+ team members are also ConsenSys members and will continue to be. However, Grid+ will be its own legal entity. This is similar to what Gnosis did - something we call "spinning out of the hub". We will have continued access to ConsenSys resources and ConsenSys will own a majority of Grid+ equity.
> This device looks like a pretty version of the Transactive Grid thing from awhile back, is this essentially the same thing or a more streamlined version of it?
The agent is essentially a small computer capable of making ECDSA signatures in a secure enclave. It will also have multisignature functionality. There are quite a lot of uses for the agent, but at a basic level a normal consumer would plug it in, register it, and it would pay for their electricity bills automatically. I encourage you to read the "Intelligent Agent" section in the whitepaper for more details.
> As for barriers, I think one area that really needs to be streamlined is the purchase of crypto/tokens for the average Joe. I guess what I'm trying to ask is, are there plans to make this as easy as buying an iTunes track?
The average consumer will not know they are using crypto. A typical customer would just purchase our stable coins (backed by the USD payment, which functions as a deposit) with a credit card and those tokens would be transferred to their agent device, which would use them to pay for electricity. The customer doesn't have to understand how our backend works or what crypto is - they just know they purchased e.g. $50 worth of tokens and that the those tokens will be used by their agent over the next few weeks.
Thanks for the response. Awesome, yeah I was just about to read the agent section before I commented. It cleared it up.
> The average consumer will not know they are using crypto.
I like this. I like this A LOT! I'll definitely be cheering you guys on from the sidelines, this looks very interesting.