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Source: nytimes.com ·
Massacres are frequently carried out by killers using military-grade equipment that’s easier to obtain when buying on credit.
Honey⚡₿adger - @bitcoinister
3 months ago
RT @EricRWeinstein: It increasingly looks to me like we‘re being intellectually softened for broad use of payment & financial processing as an extra-judicial layer of “behavioral correction” (e.g. association, speech).
And if you don’t like it, you can start your own financial system. #HelloCrypto https://t.co/RWZlhF7xfA
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Pierre Rochard - @pierre_rochard
3 months ago
RT @EricRWeinstein: It increasingly looks to me like we‘re being intellectually softened for broad use of payment & financial processing as an extra-judicial layer of “behavioral correction” (e.g. association, speech).
And if you don’t like it, you can start your own financial system. #HelloCrypto https://t.co/RWZlhF7xfA
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3846
Kacper Wikieł - @kacperwikiel
3 months ago
RT @EricRWeinstein: It increasingly looks to me like we‘re being intellectually softened for broad use of payment & financial processing as an extra-judicial layer of “behavioral correction” (e.g. association, speech).
And if you don’t like it, you can start your own financial system. #HelloCrypto https://t.co/RWZlhF7xfA
1201
3723
Dennis Parker⚡️ - @Xentagz
3 months ago
RT @Dividerca: We assume monetary censorship resistance is needed only in dictatorial regimes. The recent patreon bans (pushed by paypal etc) suggests otherwise. This will only get worse, see https://t.co/PUtPXUjLaT. Trusted third parties are security holes. Escape through bitcoin.
2
2
Ari - @AriMNazir
3 months ago
RT @EricRWeinstein: It increasingly looks to me like we‘re being intellectually softened for broad use of payment & financial processing as an extra-judicial layer of “behavioral correction” (e.g. association, speech).
And if you don’t like it, you can start your own financial system. #HelloCrypto https://t.co/RWZlhF7xfA
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Ragnar Lifthrasir ⚑ - @Ragnarly
3 months ago
RT @octal: Reason 409839080348 we need anonymous digital cash (not credit cards, not public open ledgers like bitcoin). People block arbitrary purchases for political reasons in the guise of "preventing terrorism". I've bought more guns than this before a class (and earned 4.5% from Chase.) https://t.co/93xIfzfXHR
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thr0wmeawayimtrash
3 months ago
Next up:
How credit cards finance stabbings
How credit cards finance bombings
How credit cards finance drunk driving
How credit cards finance [insert bad thing]
1
cratermoon
GrC Trailblazer 3 months ago
You're about to get banned, but just for the record: last I heard nobody driving drunk or wielding a knife killed 58 and wounded 489 in one short evening.
2
thr0wmeawayimtrash
3 months ago
Oh no I’m gonna get banned? How will I ever survive without this authoritarian sub!??
0
Thaufas
3 months ago
Most states don't let people buy lottery tickets with credit cards. Guns do far more harm to society than lottery tickets.
2
thr0wmeawayimtrash
3 months ago
Well neither can do harm to society since they’re inanimate objects.
But also not really. There are more cases of someone using a gun to defend themselves and their family / property than someone using a gun to harm another person.
0
Thaufas
3 months ago
> Well neither can do harm to society since they’re inanimate objects.
The 100,000+ people shot, murdered, or who committed suicide with guns prove you wrong, especially when 70% of all murders in the USA are committed with firearms.
> There are more cases of someone using a gun to defend themselves and their family / property than someone using a gun to harm another person.
Bullshit. That's an NRA/pro-gun lie that's been disproven many times. The [Harvard Injury Prevention Center](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use-2/) has a great overview, but you either won't read it or believe it because, you know, facts and stuff.
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thr0wmeawayimtrash
3 months ago
>The 100,000+ people shot, murdered, or who committed suicide with guns prove you wrong, especially when 70% of all murders in the USA are committed with firearms.
Show me when a gun kills or injured someone when it’s sitting on a table.
And 60+% of the 33K deaths are suicides. Subtracting accidental shooting as well, that leaves us with less that 15K deaths. What I want to know is how many are gang violence, police involved (whether justified or not), and justified self defense shootings.
> Bullshit [...]
Yeah I’ve read that study. I never said that guns are used millions of times to protect people. But more than 150K is on the low estimate according to the CDC (but you won’t believe this because you believed Obama when he said the CDC couldn’t study gun violence)
P.S. Fuck the NRA and their tactics. Nowadays they’re just a tool for the GOP and do very little to protect gun rights (see: bump stock ban)
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Thaufas
3 months ago
> Show me when a gun kills or injured someone when it’s sitting on a table.
How is this point relevant? If the lethality of a firearm is irrelevant, why don't we just give our soldiers and police officers single shot muskets?
> And 60+% of the 33K deaths are suicides.
Approximately 2/3rds of all gun deaths are suicides. That fact doesn't make gun deaths any less severe or costly to society.
> Subtracting accidental shooting as well, that leaves us with less that 15K deaths.
The Gun Violence Archive is the most complete resource on actual gun deaths and injuries. Because the gun lobby has been so effective in shutting down research, the Gun Violence Archive is a completely private effort, but they are very transparent with their research. As of this post, they are reporting 14,340 gun murders for 2018. By contrast, they report 1,739 defensive gun uses (DGU). Pro-gun zealots love to complain that gun murders are over-reported while simultaneously complaining that DGUs are under-reported. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Every study that has examined DGUs with actual, verifiable data has come up far short of the fantasy numbers asserted by Kleck nearly 25 years ago.
Furthermore, ~14,000 gun murders translates into a gun murder rate of ~4.3 murders per 100,000 citizens. Now, even if we ignore the other 30% of US murders committed by means other than firearms, the USA's firearm murder rate among OECD (ie high income) countries puts the USA in the top 5%. The only countries higher are Mexico, Turkey, and Estonia.
For contrast, here are the murder rates for some other OECD countries.
Country | Murder Rate
---|---
Japan | 0.29
Germany | 0.70
United Kingdom | 0.96
France | 1.20
Canada | 1.44
USA | 4.3
Why do you think the US is such an outlier in terms of being a high income and high murder country?
> What I want to know is how many are gang violence, police involved (whether justified or not), and justified self defense shootings.
You can look all of this up yourself. According to the FBI, the number of shootings due to [gangland violence is less than 3%](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-10.xls).
[The FBI also reports](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-14.xls) that the number of homicides committed by police in 2017 was reported to be 429 of 15,129 (2.8%). The FBI data consistently says ~300 - 500 annually, but I agree with critics that these numbers are a low estimate because police departments are not required to report officer involved shootings to the FBI. As for justified homicides by private citizens, the [FBI reported 353 for 2017](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-15.xls), which translates to 2.3% of all murders.
> Yeah I’ve read that study. I never said that guns are used millions of times to protect people. But more than 150K is on the low estimate according to the CDC (but you won’t believe this because you believed Obama when he said the CDC couldn’t study gun violence)
1. I'm guessing that you're referring to the 2013 CDC report, right? The CDC NEVER said what you are claiming. The Washington Post obliterated that myth in 2015: [The study that gun-rights activists keep citing but completely misunderstand](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/01/16/the-study-that-gun-rights-activists-keep-citing-but-completely-misunderstand/?utm_term=.608e627bffb4)
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gun-death-statistics-cdc-study-says-gun-deaths-are-on-the-rise-after-years-of-decline/
1. The CDC did publish a study this past November where they show that gun murder rates are rising significantly. [Gun death statistics: CDC study says gun deaths are on the rise after years of decline](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gun-death-statistics-cdc-study-says-gun-deaths-are-on-the-rise-after-years-of-decline/). Here's a [link to the actual 2018 study report from the CDC](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/67/wr/mm6744a3.htm?s_cid=mm6744a3_w) in case you are interested in reading it.
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spacegirlmcmillan
3 months ago
"Banks will complain this is the government’s job and it’s not our job, but you know what? They are the only ones with the ability to do this,” said Kevin Sullivan, a former New York Police fraud investigator who consults with banks as president of the Anti-Money Laundering Training Academy.
Banks are already required to report anyone who is trying to launder money or trying to avoid laundering money. Why can there not also be mental health reporting by banks?
0
ricefromspace
3 months ago
Mental health reporting? Try to imagine the Civil liberties implications of that for a moment. Your bank closing your account because your payments profile is suspect, etc.
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spacegirlmcmillan
3 months ago
No one said anything about closing accounts. But if mass shootings can be prevented through mandatory reporting, why shouldn't they be required to report?
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ricefromspace
3 months ago
OK fair enough. Let's get into the two issues I see with requiring banks to perform further reporting on customer accounts.
1) Is the existing system of bank reporting optimal?
Currently banks have to monitor customer activity and alert law enforcement if this activity appears suspicious. Basically US law enforcement has outsourced financial crime control to banks. The presumption of innocence before the law has been thrown out and all bank account owners in the USA are subject to some kind of scrutiny.
Has this resulted in good outcomes in terms of financial criminals getting caught?
Well I personally don't think so because if you look at wealth distribution in the USA, it's obviously accruing to the already wealthy and whenever we get insight into what these super rich people are doing, ala the Panama papers or Paradise papers leaks, it's clear that these people are not paying taxes.
Basically, mom and pop small fry like you and me are scrutinized by our banks and the super rich still get away with (financial) murder. Furthermore these financial reporting requirements can be used to deny services to poor people, maybe they have 'insufficient credit history,' people of color (poor character references), and perhaps Muslim Americans (concerns relating to their charitable giving).
2) Would additional reporting requirements regarding shooting related information prevent mass shootings and could there be unexpected negative consequences?
Possibly scrutinizing all the bank statements and purchasing history of all Americans would prevent some shootings. There would still be clandestine ways to prepare for a crime by purchasing weapons and other items using cash, but maybe this data could be data mined to produce better predictions regarding who is going to commit a mass shooting.
That said, we've just fed all the purchasing information of all citizens into a predictive model. The infrastructure to collect and scrutinize this data has been built. Will it stop here?
If you are familiar with the history of the past several centuries then you will probably agree with me in saying no. This is only the beginning.
Now we can also predict how people will vote with this data. Could you imagine this information being used to influence elections? Redraw electoral districts? Funnel just enough emergency money to regions that are in danger of voting for the opposition party? Now we have an even less functional government.
And that's before we get to the dystopian stuff where we have an underclass of the population who can't participate in the financial system because their 'profile is not socially optimal.'
Please look at modern China and their experiments with a Social Credit System to see how this might pan out. BTW, they have concentration camps now.
3) Finally, isn't all this talk about mental health a red herring?
There will always be mental illness. The problem in the USA is that mental illness, racism, mysoginism, inequality and anger all happen to coincidence with an absolutely rediculous amount of firearms and no effort to reduce the numbers in the hands of American citizens. This is the problem.
No other country has gun violence like the USA has gun violence and don't point to South Sudan, that's a war zone. This isn't a mystery, huge numbers of guns make it easy to start shooting when you get upset. And bullets are incredibly dangerous. That's the problem. Mental health is just a dead end conversation.
This is typed on a mobile so please excuse the typos and brevity.
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Thaufas
3 months ago
When are we going to start calling mass shootings committed by white, male, American citizens terrorism and respond with the same level of force to prevent them from happening in the first place?
Banks are required to report transactions of $10,000 or more by a single person, even if those transactions are legal. And after the Sept. 11 terror attacks, the government enacted even stricter rules under the Patriot Act: Banks must file so-called Suspicious Activity Reports for transactions involving more than $5,000 that the financial institution “has reason to suspect” are part of a plan to “violate or evade any federal law.”
...
“We need to step back and think about what tools we use to combat terrorism and money-laundering and think about the financial rules associated with the Patriot Act,” said John Streur, chief executive of Calvert Investments, a mutual fund firm that is an advocate for responsible investing. “In a very real sense, I think these mass shootings are terrorism.”
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3 months ago
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kylep39
3 months ago
Or maybe it’s about how could aid in the detection of mass shootings by monitoring financial records? Maybe when someone who doesn’t normally impulsively spend maxes 6 credit cards time to make a few calls?
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3 months ago
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3 months ago
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pooppoop342069
3 months ago
My first thought is: I buy all of my firearms related products with CC because of the rewards system. I imagine so does everyone else. If I were to look at my spending habits, I would probably look like a school shooter when I buy ammo in bulk
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3 months ago
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MasterScrewdriver
3 months ago
11k on guns is not a crazy amount of money. Almost every hobby I get into I drop a ton of cash at the start when I figure out what I want. Given how much people spend on gun safes and how much of a target they are for theft, I think if anyone where to dig into financial record, they would find a suprising number of people who do binge gun purchases.
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leftajar
3 months ago
the financial industry is uniquely positioned to see, if it chose to do so, a potential killer’s behavior
Holy shit -- the Left just tipped their hand... they will attack the 2nd Amendment through payment processors. They are tacitly calling for payment processors to "analyze" purchase behavior.
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Classical_Liberals
3 months ago
It's like these people don't know you can just withdraw money at an atm using a credit card at an absurd interest rate.
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frothface
3 months ago
Gee, why would someone go rack up a bunch of debt like that? Maybe because they are suicidal and know they won't suffer any consequences for their actions.
Do people really not understand this?
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Sorveris
3 months ago
Of course they understand, they're goading a reaction from people (95% to increase traffic for their advertisements, and 5% to virtue signal to increase their subscription rates).
It's almost like media outlets are designed to make a profit...
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YarTheBug
3 months ago
The wonderful thing about a 2 party system: One party promises to protect rights A, B, and C if you give up rights D, E, and F, the other one promises the opposite, and neither doing anything proactive to get lost rights back. As long as they take turns being in power now and then you wind up losing all your rights.
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3 months ago
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jgrey12
3 months ago
Whatever could you mean by the parentheses around his name? I don’t want to assume bad intent, but I’m left with few options based on your comment.
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Lord_Giggles
3 months ago
I'm actually confused, it's not really a Jewish name or the full (((echoes))), so maybe they didn't mean that?
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jgrey12
3 months ago
If there was anythinng else to the comment beside the name I would be more ready to consider innocent explanations, but it literally only includes their name, putting only the last into parentheses.
**Edit:** apparently Sorkin is also a Jewish name. I always want to call out any racism or sexism (and especially antisemitism) in the gun community. I not only don’t want it around, but it makes the whole community look bad and plays into a stereotype.
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yukondelight
3 months ago
This just in! Credit cards used for other amendments, stay turned out of fear to find out which ones after our sponsors!
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kenabi
3 months ago
So I just dug up all my receipts, every last LGS I've gotten anything at all from has ran the purchase as credit. Every brick and mortar store has run my firearm purchases as credit (bimart before the stupid). Every single one of them has been with a debit.
Conflation is conflation.
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Imadethis4things
3 months ago
Sorkin writes as if he’ll garner some sort of special treatment if the SHTF. In reality, the world will treat him like the ruminant he is.
2
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