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Source: theguardian.com ·
Government could have contained spread of disease if only it had learned lessons from Sars outbreak
Andrew "Not cool enough for an ETH scam" Glidden - @asglidden
10 months ago
RT @NeerajKA: If China valued free speech, there would be no coronavirus crisis https://t.co/r23woztotT
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63
Neeraj K. Agrawal - @NeerajKA
10 months ago
If China valued free speech, there would be no coronavirus crisis https://t.co/r23woztotT
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64
mooncrkit
10 months ago
USA is just as guilty, but we are taught from first grade on how free we are and how controlled countries like north Korea and China are.
No doubt, those countries are controlled. But so are we. The whole reason this thread exists is because our media is also controlled. If it wasn't, there would be no conspiracies.
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CornucopiaOfDystopia
10 months ago
Yeah seriously. At present it seems like the US government is desperately trying to contain the truth about Coronavirus in exactly the same ways that China was. It’s all about containing bad news and undesirable numbers, and not about addressing the threat objectively.
It puts all of us in danger.
4
CornucopiaOfDystopia
10 months ago
SS: China attempted to silence the scientists who tried to warn us about the novel Coronavirus, and the results were that the infection spread unchecked for a long time before it was taken seriously. It is vital that governments and other seats of power not run away from difficult truths, and we must have the same courage ourselves.
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10 months ago
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1
JaninayIl
11 months ago
I presume that if Dr Li's post had been taken seriously and not hushed up maybe just maybe they could have acted faster and reduced the deaths but with or without free speech there would still be a coronavirus. Viruses don't decide on who to infect based on your government types. So there would still be a crisis but maybe it could have been mitigated.
1
this_could_be_it
11 months ago
What? If free speech existed there’d be no endless wars and unjailed Wall Street moguls. I didn’t bother to state the abject response to H1N1, let’s start with stuff your prescription was supposed to fix. And yet, here we are....
Your system is just as abused as any other. Your checks and balances are all bought for and corrupted. Why do you want us to go through the same crappy experience?
1
fifty_frogs
11 months ago
This isn't China. Here something isn't dumb just because it's the truth.
3
maybemba131
11 months ago
Okay, do tell me how a virus outbreak stat started in November and wasn’t detected until late December and was suppressed successfully until mid January would never have happened but for that suppression. Is suppression of the truth like super growth factor for viruses, does it make them go airborne! Maybe it makes them airborne and travel back in time to super dipper infect people! I’m genuinely curious!
0
Asopaso07
11 months ago
They literally arrested a doctor for speaking out about the virus - that doctor was working on the front lines, contracted the illness himself and is now dead. Says a lot.
1
Asopaso07
11 months ago
The government silences a whistleblower and you think it’s not relevant lolol ok dumbass
1
maybemba131
11 months ago
Relevant != déterminative but enjoy calling the world dumbasses while using high school level fallacious logic.
1
fifty_frogs
11 months ago
Sometimes it's good to stop and listen to yourself and think about what you are saying...
If China never suppressed it people in Wuhan would know about it earlier and therefore it would definitely be more contained. Doctors, scientists and researchers could have started looking for ways to treat the virus earlier. The quarantine could have been significally smaller and at least effective and the virus could have been stopped from going world wide. Thousands of people wouldn't get infected. Hundreds of people wouldn't have died. Tens of millions of people wouldn't have been quarantined. There would probably not be ships at sea full of people who all of them will most likely get sick. I can go on but i hope you understand.
Information saves lives. Suppression of the truth kills people.
1
maybemba131
11 months ago
Maybe listen to yourself and think about actual facts. “If knowledge would have stopped the spread of the virus would have definitely been more contained.”
1- assumes that they knew what they were dealing with, how it was transmitted etc. Much of which were only figuring out now.
2- Assumes people would have changed behavior without large death and infected numbers on the nightly news. This story broke internationally just before my birthday (January 19) but was published in shanghai papers as early as January 1; by CNY it had been a top headline for almost a week.
3- everyone else arguing this point goes down this road, so I’ll state clearly: free speech is great, everyone should have it. That doesn’t make it a magic anti-viral though, no matter how much you want it to be.
0
fifty_frogs
11 months ago
Okay... you're too unreasonable to have a conversation.
I reallly hope you won't get infected. /s
1
HalfChineseHalfTito
11 months ago
The doctor was questioned for spreading panic, which lead a lot of citizens move out of wuhan, making them hard to track. The government should be the one making announcements, not a single doctor. Even so,. The fact that the wuhan government tried to dismiss this during the virus's early appearance and did not bother raising it to the central governemnt lead them to their own demise already.
2
cuteshooter
11 months ago
**Bullshit**, it was EIGHT medical school alumni. Where are the other 7? Have they also been virused???
1
subaru_97_caracas
11 months ago
he wasn't spreading panic. he was talking with colleagues in a private wechat group.
at the very most he caused a hundred people to leave wuhan.
Meanwhile the Chinese New Year celebration caused **5 million** people to leave Wuhan.
Had the government, instead of punishing the doctors for discussing the emerging epidemic, worked together with them, they would have restricted travel already in early january, and informed wuhan citizens on how to reduce the infection risk.
1
HalfChineseHalfTito
11 months ago
The government lifted the punishment weeks ago now and admitted their wrong. They will of course use this as a lesson.
1
jz187
11 months ago
This is just nonsense. Did free speech stop the Swine Flu of 2009?
Swine Flu is now a global seasonal virus. So much for free speech stopping pandemics.
2
Gizmodex
11 months ago
No you idiot. The government covering up a new virus and than planning a city wide celebration where food is shared is the problem you bot. And arresting a doctor. Etc. Also blocking taiwan from the WHO, etc.
1
jz187
11 months ago
And all this makes a difference how? So far China has been a lot more successful at containing this than the US with Swine Flu back in 2009.
Swine Flu is now globally a seasonal virus. It killed far more people than this current coronavirus.
The media is spouting a ton of nonsense trying to distract people with things that do not matter. The only thing that matters is the end result. Swine Flu killed over 12000 people in the US before CDC stopped counting.
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Gizmodex
11 months ago
Imma stop you there Buddy boi. I agree that the media is overhyping this shit and is fear mongering. I agree swine flu is seasonal and all (but back when it was a new thing, people were still riled up. Hell i had swine flu with my siblings and all, we were worried with the media and all).
Now here is the kicker, this new virus is less lethal but more contagious and it is new. It is a new disease so the fact that there are so many unknowns is imo scary. The fact that it was recently learned that this new coronavirus has a long incubation period is scary. In a few years from now when this all subsides, no one will bat an eye when there is a outbreak of this same Virus.
Back to the CCP thing, people are scared because China has lied many times about diseases so right now in my home Malaysia, and other surrounding countries want nothing to do with chinese tourists etc. Because people are scared the party is holding back on real figures and situations.
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maybemba131
11 months ago
I’m sorry, I know this isn’t in keeping with the culture of r/china but that’s bullshit. If the outbreak had started in a country that values free speech it would have still been an outbreak of something nearly impossible to contain.
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Gizmodex
11 months ago
If a backwater African country can contain Ebola then yes.
In what other country does a doctor get imprisoned for speaking the truth
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maybemba131
11 months ago
Dude, 1- Ebola is wayyyyyyy less contagious than the Wuhan virus (requiring close or direct contact with body fluids [here](https://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/ebola/06-october-2014/en/) and, 2- you ignorant racist piece of shit, go spent some time in Africa then talk to me.
EDIT: forgot to add that many of the African countries dealing with Ebola have similar profiles on freedom of speech as does China.
1
Gizmodex
11 months ago
You fail to see, people aren't hating on the chinese. We are hating on the CCP you fucking bot. Any critique of the CCP is met with a shit ton of dumb bots. The CCP covered up SARS, HIV, etc which led to more people getting sick
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maybemba131
11 months ago
I don’t care who people are hating on you racist piece of shit. Your original argument was dumb as fuck and with each response you make descent deeper into idiocy.
Covering it up is not the same thing as causing the outbreak.
1
Gizmodex
11 months ago
Bro at which part of any of the comments was I being racist huh? And which argument (the fact about ebola or imprisoning doctors?) .
You fucking idiot, no shit covering something up isn't the same. You just read the title of this article and it triggered you didn't it huh? now you use strawmen against me tsk tsk. I NEVER ONCE ATTACKED ANY RACE YOU STUPID SHIT.
This is the objective fact you fucking idiot: the Chinese communist party made the situation fare more worse than it should have been. They alone helped caused the spread of HIV, SARS, and now this. IF THE FUCKING PUBLIC WAS WARNED; THERE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN MASS MIGRATIONS, THERE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN LARGE SCALE CELEBRATIONS. THE DISEASE COULD HAVE BEEN LIMITED YOU DUMB FUCK.
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-49834904](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-49834904)
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/apr/09/sars.china](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/apr/09/sars.china)
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maybemba131
11 months ago
<I NEVER ONCE ATTACKED ANY RACE>
This is not the only way to show racism. There is no way to jump from Backwater African Countries can handle Ebola to China should be able to handle Coronavirus without racist assumptions that demonstrate crazy levels of ignorance about the countries affected by Ebola and about the disease itself.
1
Gizmodex
11 months ago
If i call a country less develop or backwater, this implies I'm a racist? Hahhaha. So if anyone criticises/critiques a country they are a racist. Ahhahahaha.
My juxtaposition buddy, is that a less developed nation that doesn't have a huge army/navy or space program etc. was able to contain a deadly virus. China prides itself on being the only country that could handle and outbreak like this, lies. SARS, African Swine Fever, H5N1, and now this coronavirus proves China sucks at controlling outbreaks even with the vast amount of resources. Funny enough they help these diseases spread by not spreading awareness. LETS HAVE A HUGE PARTY TO SPREAD THE CORONA VIRUS.
This sounds like if the USSR saying "we are the only people that can contain a nuclear disaster like chernobyl.
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maybemba131
11 months ago
Position 1- the lack of free speech caused the outbreak.
Shift
Position 2- the lack of free speech caused Chinese Net Years migration which made the outbreak worse.
Shift
Position 3- they didn’t do enough to spread the word before CNY and reduce the outbreak.
Damn dude, you dominated me.
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Gizmodex
11 months ago
I never said position 1. I never said position 2. Here let me put it into simple English:
If the people had known better, they wouldn't have done any of what was said (e.g City wide celebrations or mass migration). The Chinese authorities insistence this Virus is a non issue is what helps maximize infection.
You never did once refute any of my points. You bring up dumb new points. Again i ask you, what kind of nation silences a doctor speaking the truth and warning the public. Dumb fuck.
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maybemba131
11 months ago
Let’s review the arguments:
OP: If China has free speech there would be no coronavirus crisis.
Me: that’s stupid, it’s a highly contagious virus. Free speech doesn’t stop viruses.
You: If “backwater African countries” can stop Ebola then China should be able to stop coronavirus.
Me: 1- the African reference is racist: 2- it’s a stupid argument because Ebola is much less contagious and because African countries vary a great deal in the degree to which they have free speech.
You: Shit up, I’m not criticizing all Chinese people, I’m half Chinese! And also, I’ve been to Morocco and South Africa so I can’t be racist. Also, your a CCP bot for criticizing me!
Me: Your arguments get dumber and dumber.
You: China really is censoring speech! Quit pretending it’s not! If they announced it we wouldn’t have held Chinese New Years.
Me: you might be half Chinese but you haven’t paid any attention to the timeline, news of the virus in Wuhan broke BEFORE CNY and people traveled home anyways.
You’re trying to undercut my critique by pretending I’m arguing something entirely different from what I said. When I point out how dumb that is you double down. Maybe go to r/sino if you want to argue with someone who really does like the CCP but pretending that I have to agree with OP’s original argument because Ebola is just plain stupid.
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Gizmodex
11 months ago
Bro I'm part chinese and have been to Africa. The nations affected by ebola are wayyy less developed than china. I've been all around north and south Africa
Ebola is way less contagiousness but deadlier. You really wanna say this coronavirus is worse? I'd rather have the coronavirus than ebola.
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maybemba131
11 months ago
<less contagious >.
News flash: Less contagious diseases are easier to contain.
<I’ve been all around North and South Africa >
So, you’ve been to all the white parts of Africa, that proves you’re not racist? I’ve lived in West Africa, do tell me about freedom of speech in Togo and Rwanda because if your idiotic argument holds they should have terrible problems with Ebola.
1
penguin082224
11 months ago
Lmao, so H1N1 never happened in U.S. and failed to be contained killing thousands right? Or something worse there caused the crisis?
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capitancheap
11 months ago
[Free speech did not prevent the Mexican Swine Flu outbreak] (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.commondreams.org/views/2009/09/12/great-swine-flu-cover%3famp)
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[deleted]
11 months ago
If pigs had freedom of speech, schweinflu outbreak should have been prevented!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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kingofvirgins123
11 months ago
"Free Speech" LOL. Okay so let's see. America under capitalism has produced mass school shooters, an abundant number of homeless / mentally ill people, a high number of crimes, a large amount of drug addicts, serial killers, ect. all because of corrupt politicians. And you say China is worse because they don't have free speech?
Let me ask you, how dangerous is it to be outside in the streets of New York compared to a major city in China? Oh wait, you never been to China so you don't know how safe and booming it's economy is and just preach about "freedom of speech". Typical brainwashed American.
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911roofer
11 months ago
Where have you been since the eighties? New York is now incredibly safe thanks to Rudy Guliani sending all the criminals to prison.
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okami2392
11 months ago
You know it's wumaos when they always go with the USA whataboutusim
Hate to break it to you but:
-not all that support freedom of speech are american
-there are many different views about America in the western world; some hate it some like it and all in betweeen.
-take example from the country of TAIWAN, where there is freedom of speech and no school shootings etc.
3
Midnight2012
11 months ago
Yeah, the US isn't a police state. We dont just execute our undesirables *en masse* like China does. That's why our more problematic parts of society are visible, unlike China.
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stealmyrecords
11 months ago
username checks out. When was the last time you left the CCP's basement?
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MikeLaoShi
Scotland 11 months ago
Whataboutery.
Oh, and a bonus strawman thrown in for a logical fallacy double-whammy.
"you've never been to China" ???
Many on this sub have, actually. I've lived here since 2008, for instance.
You, my friend, are a perfect example of how the Chinese education system fails the Chinese people: You can't stray from the typical invalid counter arguments which blind devotees to the CCP use as you lack the capacity in critical thinking to come up with your own.
I could go into greater detail about how the various societal ills present in the USA are able to be reported upon, campaigned for/against, and legislated about precisely *because* they are a society which enjoys freedom of speech, free press, and representative government, but I'll leave that to actual "Americans" to do if they so wish, as they'll know more about it than I.
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cuteshooter
11 months ago
**In the US, Doctors who discover a disease outbreak are not arrested and told to **shut the fuck up"**
YOU cannot spin this!!!
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mossy1991
11 months ago
Why only use America as an example, instead of the many other countries which have free speech and don't have the problems you mentioned?
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jump_hour
11 months ago
Author disregarding lack of education, lack of hygiene, reliance on 'chinese medicine', saving face, kowtow culture.. what else am i missing.
but it might be better.
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Tailtappin
11 months ago
I hate the CCP. I have to preface the following statement with that because this is going to go against the hivemind here.
I don't see how free speech would have made any difference whatsoever in this situation. After all, it's the government's reaction that matters. Now, we could argue that the people could have put more pressure on the government but this is a government that has no good reason to care what the people think of anything it does. It's not like it tells them anything, anyway. The government of China has lied throughout the entire crisis so far so what difference would free speech have made?
Don't misunderstand, I'm not arguing against the need for free speech in China. I'm not arguing that it's a bad idea. I'm just saying that whatever connection between free speech and the complete avoidance of a rogue virus infecting the globe is tenuous at best.
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cuteshooter
11 months ago
The 8 medical school alumni in Wuhan who discovered the first cases in December were detained and told by the police to shut the fuck up.
2
HotNatured
United States 11 months ago
I see your point, but I still disagree. Maybe this is an example of circular reasoning or some other logical fallacy, but I think that we have a *Inception* scenario going on here, and, well, we have to go deeper!!! The CCP can afford to not give a fuck what the people think of anything it does precisely because of all the hard work they put into containing the 'virus' that they regard popular sentiment to be. If people have free speech and the ability to organize civil society, then there's a general counterweight to government fuckery that essentially boils down to *we can only tolerate so much.*
And let's not forget that the lack of free speech also results in something that has been really significant in this case: self censorship. When Dr. Li first shared info on this novel virus, he did so in a private Wechat group and expressly asked that it not be mentioned to anyone outside the group. It's not just that his info would have spread more easily with free speech - - it's that hundreds of people like him might have spoken up sooner, nothing would have had to be 'leaked', and criticism/oversight of the local response would have been immediate. Moreover, free speech might have prevented whatever conditions that gave rise to the pathogen spreading over to humans. (Investigative journalism could have once played that role, but I've read that it has all but died under Xi.)
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Tailtappin
11 months ago
Those are well-reasoned points. I'm just doing a play by play here.
Let's say that he could have told people that there was some mystery virus going around and it was really dangerous. Okay, so we establish that there's some danger. So what did Beijing do even with the absence of that information being public knowledge? It quarantined an entire city. We can argue (reasonably, in my estimation) that it was too little, too late but that's a side topic. The point, however, is that Beijing went after this thing with a bazooka when it was still a fly. So we can at least credit Beijing with taking the matter seriously. I wouldn't call it an over-reaction but in terms of effectiveness, the measure is lackluster. In any case, had the matter been brought to the public's attention, I would argue that it would have exacerbated the situation as people would have panicked and left the city as fast as their little trolleys could carry them. So now the virus has been diffused. After all, what was the first thing the people of Wuhan did when they found out about the danger? They panicked and ran. In this particular case, yup, free speech would have been a liability.
Now, again, I'm not arguing against free speech, I'm pointing out that in the best case scenario, it would have made no difference at all. Every other (and more likely) scenario results in quicker spread of the virus.
At this point, I'm not sure what difference it makes whether the people have full access to information or not but at the outset of the panic, I can't see that it would have improved anybody's chances of remaining virus-free. In fact, as I stated above, logically, it would have made things worse.
But with all of that said, I'm still an advocate of free speech. I just don't see what difference it makes here.
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jalilmdx1
11 months ago
You can read [this](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/fa83463a-4737-11ea-aeb3-955839e06441) article and look at the timeline of events. If after that you are not convinced how free speech could have made a difference then I’m not sure there is hope for you. I think the most egregious part of the whole story is how on January 18, weeks after government officials were aware of the disease, Wuhan held a banquet with 40,000 families. The fact that you think Beijing responded to a “fly” with a bazooka is ironic. I say that because when Beijing announced all the measures taken, I was in my apartment having a conversation about this with my girlfriend and I thought exactly the SAME thing as you. In fact, I even commended the response of the government. It wasn’t until a few days later as more information came to light that my perception started to shift as I began to realize that I was basing my judgement on incorrect information. So what I think is more likely is that, just like me, YOU also thought Beijing responded with a bazooka to a fly. What we both failed to see was that because of the limits on free speech and the suppression of information up until that point, they were really responding to an impending catastrophe. Now I think ncov-2019 might have been a fly in late December and had people been informed then instead of suppressing information, sensible measures could have been taken by officials and also by people (like not attending/hosting a massive banquet). By mid-January it was a full-blown crisis that required extreme measures.
1
baronjhui
11 months ago
What the actual fuck? The Chernobyl disaster was responded as quickly as they could. It was caused by a botched experiment and bad designing, not lack of free speech. The fact that the Soviet Union is a failed state doesn’t mean you can throw anything at it and discredit it with lies.
As a matter of fact, the premier was notified within 5 hours, a special committee was organized within 10 hours, evacuation was ordered within 18 hours, and all were evacuated within 36 hours.
Perhaps you should’ve said “Fukushima”, because that’s where the official over up occurred.
0
reed_von_ingalls
11 months ago
Yey!! Freedom of speech is all we need. There is no need to actually test whether a certain strain of illness is actually dangerous. There is no need to stop people from panicking and destroying the economy whenever anyone gets ill. We need to ignore the fact that there are millions of virus species out there and they are always evolving and changing. Any time anyone gets ill and starts spreading rumor of a new killer virus killing thousands, we just need to let them spread such rumors.
​
If there is freedom of speech, it can help defend against any virus that comes cause people will be informed and still keep travelling all over china. No need to quarantine entire cities. That's something only dictators do. Quarantine and stopping travel never works. Virus can only be stopped by information online and that's it. Even in a country of 1400 million people and even during THE travelling season when 350 million people travel, we should just rely on people and their judgement to stop the virus. If they have freedom of speech, they can simply abadon their travel and take a penalty for their bookings. Yey! people are so well-informed and intelligent. And yet all the countries are banning travel from China. I wonder why. They are attacking freedom of movement of the chinese. They are being dictators. These things don't work. Only freedom of speech works.
If there is freedom of speech, democrasies can never ignore warnings and they always super prepared. That's why we have ebola, h1n1 and so many other viruses that happened and killed millions in democracies. They are so efficient. O my god!! China is such a bad bad place.
0
subaru_97_caracas
11 months ago
why such silly straw arguments?
open discourse certainly helps dealing with an emerging crisis.
0
bigfat1p
11 months ago
Resident PhD scientist returns to give an awfully constructed whataboutissm argument.
Your PhD department needs some better use of funding.
2
ZhouYouGuang
11 months ago
Lol how many crises have been because of a doctor making warnings about a virus? Why is this the new shill argument? It’s the same thing with most of these idiots defending the CCP on here.
Maybe you can help me understand why it is imperative to arrest people for chatting in a private group and warning about the government trying to hide the spread of a potentially virus? How can one justify arguing this after seeing what is going on? Are people like you just straight up denying the novel coronavirus even exists?
0
gamyng
11 months ago
They killed the doctor that discovered it.
And as the number of dead passes 24 000, they still lie about it.
0
cuteshooter
11 months ago
And what about the other 7 Wuhan medical school alumni in the wechat group? They're gone from media accounts of the story.
https://www.reddit.com/r/corovirusdata/comments/f17szz/latest_virus_update_story_hong_kong_free_press/
1
ftc08
Canada 11 months ago
Or a doctor in the field during an outbreak of a highly contagious disease contracted it and died. That's known to happen every now and then.
6
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