In late 2012 I bought a 2011 Think City as part of their bankruptcy sale. It has a 24 kWh battery, same size as a first-generation Nissan LEAF. I'm a nerd and keep a spreadsheet with the data for each charge, going back to January 2013 when I bought a submeter for the 240v charging circuit. In the past year, it's gotten 124 mpg-e; 102 mpg-e in winter, 136 mpg-e in summer. Range on 80% of the battery has been 50-55 miles in winter and 70-75 miles in late spring and summer. I have used my ownership as the focal point to study all things about EVs.
I have argued forever that battery EVs are not acceptable road-trip vehicles, and will not be for the foreseeable future. An acceptable road trip EV would need a much bigger battery than any Tesla now carries, and one consequence besides the expense would be the extra weight, which would seriously degrade fuel economy. Basic problem is energy density, and it limits the practical size of any EV battery using the technology of today and the foreseeable future.
One of my brothers sent me the NYT link. Before reading it, I guessed that the car was either a Tesla that waited in line for charges, or a Bolt that didn't have to wait. Had it been a Tesla, the charging time for that 540-mile round trip would have been 2 to 2-1/2 hours, the claims elsewhere in this thread notwithstanding.
A Tesla will add 6 miles of range per minute at the charging station, and that's only if the main power feed can accommodate everyone there without slowing down. A Bolt will charge at half that rate at a DC station. By contrast, the average small car gets 29 mpg in combined driving, and well over 30 mpg on the highway. It can add 150+ miles of range per minute at the pump. Five minutes will more than do it; in fact, for many smaller gas cars, two minutes will be enough.
The EVangelist Tesloids make me laugh by presenting long charge times as some sort of virtue. In the real world, at best a Tesloid will spend 1/6 of its drive time at the recharger. A gas car that spends 5 minutes at the pump every 300 miles uses 2% of the drive time for its form of "recharging." Bottom line: Battery EVs make for a good urban commuter car, especially the ones with bigger batteries. But road trips? Forget it. The NYT article contained a lot of filler material, but the charging part was spot on.
EDIT: By the way, if every single sedan in America were replaced with a battery electric car, at the mix of fuels used to make electricity, we'd reduce CO2 emissions by 3% in their operation. The CO2 argument for EVs is laughable.
What article did you read?
"To better understand what life with an electric car is like, I hopped into a Chevrolet Bolt recently and traveled from Los Angeles to Las Vegas, a 540-mile round trip that many people make regularly.
The Bolt is the first in a lineup of electric cars that General Motors hopes to sell in the coming years. The hatchback, which costs about $37,500 before federal and state tax breaks, can travel about 240 miles on a full charge, according to the Environmental Protection Agency. But for Bolts as for other electric vehicles, experts generally recommend keeping it 30 to 80 percent charged for optimal battery life.
I rode with representatives of EVgo, a company that is building fast-charging stations across the country. On top of the eight hours or so that we were actually on the road, we spent close to five and a half hours charging the car."
I work at a Community College in Arizona and one faculty has an Electric Fiat (I think it has 84 mile range). He can connect to a 110 Volt regular outlet in the parking lot and charge for free. If you are one of the few people owning an electric car at your work, you might get permission to charge it for free. Those used Fiats are going for $8000, real cheap because nobody wants them. They are only sold in California and Oregon...
Los Angeles should not be an 8 hour drive. If it is, you're doing something wrong or taking your sweet time. San Francisco to Las Vegas is around 11 hours, but that's because there's a mountain range, a giant national park, and several national forests between them. The same is not true at all with LA. Even as the crow flies, LA is much closer.
My Model 3 makes a great road trip car. So i completely disagree. We have both a gas car and an EV and I would take the EV anytime over the gas car. Not only is there the money saved in fuel costs but stopping to charge really doesn't result in that much time lost. Unless you are doing a cannonball run where you trying to do the absolute shortest time most people even in a gas car stop to eat, go to the bathroom, take a breaks, etc. So that can pretty easily fit around charging.
nonsense. i'm in Vegas right now and drove my Tesla model 3 here from southern California. we stopped once, for no longer than we would have stopped anyway to use the restroom and grab snacks. the car charged while we were inside the store, we came back out and were on our way.
No you misunderstand me.
I'm saying the intended purpose of the car is for the typical commuter. Its fine now that it can make the LA Vegas run. But that is not the intent of the car. The writer of this article expecting a short range vehicle to do a road trip is asinine.
Hence my example I don't expect my motorcycle to haul 2x4's home from home depot. I use a truck for that.
Everything has a purpose. Tesla saves you money on gas and gets you to work and home. But you wouldn't drive it to NYC from LA tomorrow if you had to be there in 2 days. You'd fly or rent a car for a week.
on the route from my house to Vegas there are 7 superchargers. I did not have to wait when I stopped at yermo, and there were spots available when I left. they're constantly upgrading the supercharger network so I'm hopeful this won't be an issue, but I can't say it never will be...
I will say we did a road trip to Phoenix in March with the car, and we actually did have to wait for a spot once on the way home. that was the first time I've had to wait in a little under 11 months with the car. we did a road trip to Kansas City and back last year, and didn't have to wait for a charge even once. every supercharger we stopped at had spots open. the possibility of having to wait is much more prevalent in CA it seems...
edit: the other nice thing though is that there are chargers at paris (we're staying at bally's so we can use that garage since it's attached). will be nice to leave with a full tank of gas for free tomorrow morning.
What I see that I often wonder if it will be a problem- people leave there cars parked in a charging spot even with the car being fully charged. I pass by charging stations in the morning and in the afternoon the same cars are still there.
If you leave your car overnight (like you’re doing at Paris) to charge and all the spots are taken, what does the person who needs a charge and there’s no spot do? Just find another one somewhere else I guess?
this is true, and is an issue with a lot of public chargers at hotels. i always watch the app and move the car when full, but a lot of people don't. that being said, i've taken the car out of the garage and brought it back 3 times this weekend while we've been here, and each time i've been able to get a spot...and they only have four chargers available, so it's not a large bank of chargers. seems enough people are moving when finished charging, by that measure...
Okay thanks for answering. I think electric cars are really neat but trying to educate myself on whether or not it's the right move for me.
I bet in the future there might be some sort of penalty for "idling" cars if it becomes a problem.
I am sure Tesla will add a feature that will indicate charge completed and when next person sees that, they can disconnect the charger and the car will self park in a different non charging sport, thus opening the charger for the next person.
no problem, i'm happy to answer any other questions if you have them.
as for idling penalties, tesla already has that, btw...if you leave the car sitting at a supercharger and are already full, it's $1/minute i believe.
Honestly even though the number are out of proportion, it does raise an interesting question. Do you sacrifice time for money and convenience? A regular car you take maybe 3-5 minutes to fuel to a full tank but it’s costs money. Where as an electric car doesn’t cost to fuel (“charge”) but it takes a lot more time.
Also correct me if I’m wrong but don’t most electric cars also taken gasoline as well for reserve? So wouldn’t that reduce the time overall?
But for most average people you will actually save time with an EV. Long distance driving usually makes up a fairly small part of a person's actual driving. So if you have home charging then the vast majority of the time charging doesn't cost you any time. You plug in in when you get home, it charges when you sleep and every day you wake up with a full "tank". So generally you are going to save more time then you lose with the few times you will have to charge when on a long trip.
Also correct me if I’m wrong but don’t most electric cars also taken gasoline as well for reserve? So wouldn’t that reduce the time overall?
You’re thinking of [hybrids](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle) like the Prius. They have tiny gas engines that are actually generators. Car is propelled by electric motors operating from batteries.
Tesla is all electric. No engine picking up slack.
100% agree. I'm here right now, having driven up from so cal for the weekend, and we only stopped at yermo for 10 minutes or so because we needed to use the restroom (so I figured since we had to stop anyway, might as well be at a supercharger and plug in while doing so). the car nav told me we could have made it the whole way without stopping.
According to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Supercharger#Supercharger_technology
They take about 20 minutes to charge to 50%, 40 minutes to charge to 80%, and 75 minutes to 100% on the original 85 kWh Model S.
There are a lot of super chargers between here and LA, and some of them are at nice rest stops.
And this is why electric cars aren't overly popular in Canada. They're fine in the city, but when the next major city is >300km away. Not everyone can afford a tesla, and the leaf and bolt both are less than useless in winter unless you can drive them from heated parking to heated parking. Electric cars have a ways to go yet.
Ok, I did a similar drive this week. Left from Ventura County (northwest of LA) going to Las Vegas, 308 miles each way. I’ve had my bolt for less than a month and had only used a fast charger once, but I figured this trip would not be a problem.
We left about 7 AM on Thursday with a full charge. Easily made it to Victorville and charged for 40 minutes while we had a really good breakfast at Farmer Boys, about a 5 minute walk from the EVGo station.
No issues getting to the EvGo station in Baker. Not much to do there during a 35 minute charge. Made it to the hotel in Vegas with no issues, but the room as not ready and they werenot sure about the charger, so we drove to another EvGo charger and charged for about 16 minutes, just in case. After returning to the hotel, I was able to get access to the charger in the VIP parking for free.
On Friday, I was fully charged and drove about 50 miles during the day before heading out about 5:30. Easily got to Baker and had an ok Greek salad while I charged fo r45 minutes. This was my one mistake. I checked the distance to Victorville and since I was above that distance and the rate had tapered to 23 Kw, I stopped the charging. It turns out that the charge in Victorville is a few miles more and after about 30 minutes I realized that my minimum distance was only 3 miles more than the actual distance. I dropped my cruising speed from 75 or so to 65, then 63 and finally 62 and made it with 8% left: https://imgur.com/a/BpcUTB4
I then charged for a full hour without any issues, other than the fact that at 10:30 at night, there is not much to do in this area, other than drink coffee.
I can understand the bias of the article. Who is going to read anything about a boring drive from LA to Vegas? I have two ICE vehicles and I would not even consider using one of them for this drive. The Bolt is so much fun to drive and the charging is not a big deal if you are not in a big hurry.
Not to say there isn’t room for improvement. If you had mobility issues or small kids, these charging locations would be an issue as there is nothing to do unless you can walk 1,000 feet.
Late at night, the locations could be an issue for some people. Given the small size of the chargers, I wonder why they are in such out of the way locations. I hope they start putting them in better locations where you can easily get a nice meal or take a walk without any concerns about safety.
I think you're a tad timid, which is normal for a new owner. 8% is a healthy remaining SOC for a segment, after a few trips you would have slowed only to 70 and arrived with 4% without breaking a sweat.
I can do the trip there with one 30 minute charge in Baker driving precisely at 70mph on cruise (that is far more time efficient than driving faster and then needing the make 2 stops). It is 173 miles from my house to the charger in Baker, and 84 miles from Baker to Vegas. On the return trip, start full in Vegas, bypass Baker and stop in Barstow.
The net elevation increase from my house to Vegas is only 311' (my house is at 1690' and Vegas is 2001'). I live just off the I15.
Thanks for the tips. I did not see a DC fast charger in Baker, but I agree that moderate speed and one charge would be the way to go.
I'm 218 miles from home to Baker, with a 200 ft elevation gain. I'm not sure I could risk that yet. :-)
Barstow doesn't have one (although it is under construction at the Walmart) so on the way back it's either an hour and a bit on the L2 at the mall or drive 34 miles further to Victorville (which is totally doable if there weren't any unusual issues like a strong headwind).
After ~1 hour on the L2 at the mall there is enough for me to make it home, and there are plenty of backups from that point on in the case of unexpected conditions.
The L2 at the mall is more like a backup unless you feel like stopping for a bit anyway.
All of this is fine assuming there is a charger open. If they are in use, then the article numbers are very realistic.
This article had to be published right now to make any sense, since it will be irrelevant in a matter of about 2 months. We're literally just one 350kW rapid charging station (and one EV that accepts that rate) away from completely transforming the L.A. <-> Las Vegas EV story, and both the car and the station are already under development for delivery this year.
An Audi e-tron or a Jaguar I-PACE would be charging for only 3 hours 15 minutes with the existing infrastructure. Wait a couple of months, and the Electrify America station at Barstow will be online, at which point the e-tron will do the trip with just one charging stop for about 45 minutes each way (1.5 hours total). The I-PACE will be able to do the round trip with about 2 hours of charging total, which is probably the same for the Kona EV. The Porsche Taycan? At 320kW, we'll be talking more like 30 minutes total.
Reminds me of the garbage articles that came out trying to stir up range anxiety for the LEAF and the Model S back in the day.
According to ABRP, a Tesla Model 3 LR needs [54 minutes of charging](https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=1a1a2ae0-8ac9-4519-bf5a-4c62b34bebde) for LA to Las Vegas and back, in optimal conditions. The Model 3 Standard Range Plus model needs [1 hour and 24 minutes](https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=5889664c-3053-485b-b93b-a8b512c4da08), which isn’t a huge penalty at a lower cost.
Tesla’s slowest current model, the Model X Standard Range, can do the trip in [1 hour 58 minutes](https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=04e79984-19f3-452c-84d5-c285dfaaef7b) of charging.
Audi e-tron needs [3 hours and 12 minutes](https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=713c3ba1-fc8e-4443-ad5f-a97edfdf0520) today, though faster chargers should help.
ABRP claims the Chevy Bolt can do the trip [in just under 3 hours](https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=3c2b82d7-8d6a-4ca9-9f73-6505a1cb84a3), though this assumes optimal conditions and a charging strategy that the article authors may not have followed.
As much of an EV fan I am, I'm beginning to doubt the benefits of BEV especially for long distance driving. Sure high speed DC fast charging like the Audi e-tron and Porsche Taycan can alleviate some pains, but it still doesn't beat 10 minutes at a gas pump, or taking a high speed rail when you can sleep and be served drinks and food on the way.
If you’re taking advantage of a PHEVs unlimited range, then you’re relying on the dirty production of oil drilling and refining. Are you aware of that?
If you’re relying on the PHEV battery alone you’re operating at a fraction of the range and efficiency you’d get in a Tesla, so your road trips would be nearly impossible, with the same dirty production of a BEV.
So you’re either road tripping with laughably terrible range and charging, or you’re burning gas all the way, which is hardly an improvement over the emissions from a BEV.
Glad you like your PHEV. Maybe you should examine your flawed criticism of BEVs a little.
Yeah ok, so you spend all your time winging about dirty BEVs and talking up Priuses and PHEVs as a vast improvement but now you don’t own a PHEV, think they cost too much and hate the environment. Got it. Weird, but consistent with your logic-free commentary in general.
If you’re arguing that a PHEV has unlimited range, your basis for that claim is unlimited access to gasoline for the duration of a (read carefully now)... ROAD TRIP. And once you’re talking up using a gasoline powered car, you’ve lost any claim that BEVs are in some way more dirty. You don’t get it both ways. You either run a car conveniently for long distances on gasoline, and pollute while you do it, or you use a larger battery, charge longer, and drive cleaner.
If you want to live with a Prius, be my guest. Just wrap your mind around the unavoidable fact that a road trip in any kind of hybrid is not a cleaner way to travel than using a BEV. Although why you even care about whether a BEV is “dirty” is certainly a mystery at this point. Maybe you just don’t like Teslas and think this is a clever way to troll people? Very odd.
I dislike BEVs, because they are a forced solution to the problem. I just want to fight a situation like the one in norway where you have to get a BEV.
And man, a few road trips per month where you burn a few Liters of gasoline doesn't come close to the pollution of the production of a long range battery, just accept it.
> a few Liters of gasoline doesn't come close to the pollution of the production of a long range battery, just accept it.
You said "I don't give a fuck about the environment"
So why you using pollution as argument in anything you say? Dont be hypocrite.
I am assuming that in this discussion we are talking about the environmental impact of the alternatives. If I had to drive something more environmental friendly by law I would 100% prefer a PHEV than a BEV.
But at the moment I don't care to spend a single Euro more on a car to be more environmentally friendly. My point just was that if lawmakers actually want to help the environment long range BEVs are not the way to go.
As taxpayer in EU - I am super happy whenever EU money is spent on BEV's
Hybrid Electric Vehicles are shit, and they dont solve any problems. You still have ICE engine with all it's problems.
Hybrid Electric Vehicles need's to die. Sooner the better.
Disagreed. I'd rather see the money spent on public transportation rather than expensive EVs for the rich.
If cities actually cared about the environment, they would announce a ban on personal cars in the inner city within 10 years and only allow public transportation, bikes etc. in cities. Now that would help the environment!
But wait, public transportation is only for serial killers. Just remembered this downside.
Well the subreddit tag is “Revolutionary cars, shitty company” but you seem to hate the car itself, not just the company/founder, which means this is kind if an odd place for you. Furthermore it says “discussion supported by facts and data” but when I’ve asked you for anything to support your absurd claims you refuse. So how are you contributing anything useful here?
>Well the subreddit tag is “Revolutionary cars, shitty company”
That's a joke lmao, no bear here would say the cars are actually good. Well maybe if the Model 3 LR was 25k per car. But not at the current prices.
Electrify America chargers are 350kW. Taycan is setting the bar for accepting a charge at >300kW. I'll give it 3 years tops before every EV over $35,000 accepts a charge at 250kW or higher. They'll do just fine for road trips like L.A. to Las Vegas.
Hopefully I'm proven wrong - I want EV to succeed, but I would be lying if the whole Tesla lies has me jaded of how far we can actually take this in the real world, not just in Musk's fantasy make-believe land.
Funny enough, the V3 Tesla superchargers can get you to 90% in about 30 minutes (and keep in mind the charge rate isn't linear, so you'll get to 50% in maybe 10 to 15 minutes.
Now to be fair, Tesla only has like 2 of the V3 chargers deployed right now, but even with the current V2 chargers you can get to 80% in 30 minutes.
That means you can drive about 3-4 hours in between charging, depending on how fast you go.
I have no idea what they did so wrong in this article but it's not really an accurate reflection of reality for Tesla owners at least.
Lol what? Look at a map, I-15 is the main way to go from Vegas to LA and there are 4x supercharger stations along that distance and he'd only need to use one.
If he wanted to take the scenic route through Arizona and down near Lake Havasu, there are still 2x supercharger stations down there.